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Understanding Multifamily Insurance with J Darrin Gross
Darrin Gross is a commercial real estate insurance expert and a real estate investor. He specialises in insuring investment properties. Their real estate insurance program partners currently provide coverage in 44 states accounting for over 300,000+ real estate rental units.
In this episode, Darrin talks about how he got started in this business, what to look for when insuring property, and much more!
- Darrin's background
- How he got into real estate from doing insurance
- On the properties they have bought
- 3 basic strategies of risk management
- - Avoid
- - Minimize
- - Transfer
- Insurance as a vehicle to transfer the risk
- On minimising the risk
- Understanding what an insurance underwriter looks for
- Do your due diligence and talk to your insurance broker sooner in the deal
- Different types of insurance that an investor needs to be aware of and when they are used
- Builders risk policy
- What liability means
- Protecting yourself from future liabilities
- 2 sections of liability
- - Premise
- - Completed operation
- How builders risk works
- The kind of insurance a landlord needs
- Make sure you've insured to the replacement cost value
- Policies that a landlord would need
- The insurance a wholesaler needs
- "Get your insurance broker involved early."
- "You have to know what is your strategy."
RESOURCES AND LINKS FROM THIS SHOW:
- Darrin's website
- Commercial Real Estate Pro Network Podcast
- Contact information: 503-5047619
- Email Address: email@example.com
Larry: Welcome to the Brain Pick-A-Pro Show live from Lake Wylie, South Carolina. I’m Larry Goins. Thank you, guys, so much for watching. Man, I really appreciate it, and thanks a lot for sharing the video, thanks a lot for commenting, leaving us feedback. We really, really, really appreciate that, ’cause it takes a lot to put this together, arranging everything. You gotta have an editor, post editor, somebody to post all this stuff, so thank you, guys, very much. We do wanna keep it free, we wanna keep it flowin’, and have really, really good guests, and today is no exception. I’m really excited today because today I’ve got on a guest, Darrin Gross. Darrin is a real estate investor and he’s also an insurance guy. He knows insurance inside and out. Any different kind of insurance, working with investors, that’s all he does is work with investors. It’s gonna be a great, great show today so please give a warm welcome to Darrin Gross. What’s going on, buddy? How you been?
Darrin: I’m good, Larry. How are you?
Larry: Man, I am doing awesome. I am doing awesome. Hey, why don’t you start out and tell our viewers and listeners a little bit about yourself?
Darrin: Sure. So, I’m based in Portland, Oregon, and – out on the West Coast, we’re the little sister of the big or, you know, West Coast, you got Seattle, San Francisco, and LA, and we’re one of the smaller ones but I’ve been out here for almost thirty years. I grew up back in Midwest, came out here to work for an insurance company, been doing insurance ever since, and, along the way, kinda ran into some property investors, was the hungry insurance agent and they needed insurance and they kept calling me for more insurance, they kept buying more houses and, over time, I kinda was asking them, you know, what they were doing, how it was working and they kept sharing a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more, and, at the time, I had just wanted a new car. I wanted, you know, I wanted enough money for a new car payment and they were telling me about how they were making a hundred dollars a door kind of thing. A hundred dollars there, a hundred dollars there, a hundred dollars there, and I was kinda like, God, you know, a couple of theseand you could have a new car. Anyway, with that, turned to one of my clients and told him how I needed to get into it and he said, “You want in, I’ll sell you this one,” you know, and I was like, “This one, that’s pretty rough.” And anyway, you know, he had mentioned a price and I knew that he needed $10,000, that’s what he really needed. He didn’t need the price that he offered and so I borrowed $10,000 off a line of credit I had, gave him that, and he carried the contract and seven months later it sold. It was an accidental flip, I had another client that wanted to get into real estate, and I was hooked. Been in real estate ever since and I’d say, over the time I’ve, you know, I’ve got clients that do all sorts of different things, but majority of my efforts, my daily efforts, are spent talking with and looking for real estate investors that I can talk with or work with on their insurance, and my wife and I, we’ve got handful of single-family properties, we’ve got six out here and we – a little over a year ago, we bought a twelve-unit apartment building, so we’re looking at trying to, you know, transition that way.
Larry: That’s great, that’s great. So, you got a handful of single-family rentals, you’ve got a twelve-unit that you bought about a year ago. Is the twelve-unit close by?
Darrin: No. It’s close to you. It’s clear across the country. Yeah, my mother-in-law, she lives down in Florida and my wife has kind of identified that as the long-term destination and so I thought, if that’s the long-term destination, maybe I should start looking down there, and so we found this and it’s been a learning lesson, but I think the, you know, the fundamentals I’ve learned there, you know, it wasn’t such a big property that it was gonna kill me if something blew up.
Darrin: You know, it was a good opportunity to get in and learn. We’ve learned a lot and we’ve improved the property a lot and the rents are up and, in fact, I just got an e-mail last night from my property manager. We got another unit that we turned, we’re getting rents nearly double of what we paid – or when we bought the property, what the rents were before we bought it, so good. You know, it’s good and like to keep, you know, increasing the rents ’cause that’ how you increase the value on the commercial properties.
Larry: That’s awesome, man. I love that, I love it. You know, and you mentioned about you talking to the property manager. I was just getting ready to ask you, you know, you don’t have your mother-in-law managing that for you, do you?
Darrin: No, no, no, no. That would not be good. That would not be good, yeah. I wouldn’t have a mother-in-law anymore.
Larry: Or a wife probably.
Darrin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little friction there.
Larry: That’s funny, that’s funny. So, tell us a little bit about the, you know, I mean, insurance is very, very important. You know, I mean, there’s – insurance has to do with risk, right? And there’s basically three different ways you can handle risk. Why don’t you jump into that a little bit?
Darrin: Sure. So, from a risk management philosophy, we consider there’s three basic strategies. You can avoid the risk, which is like if you’re looking at a property to buy, you can just say there’s, you know, too many problems there. We’re not gonna do the deal.
Darrin: You can minimize the risk, which may be, you know, price negotiation or bring a partner or, you know, somebody there to lessen your risk, or you can transfer the risk, and insurance is basically, that’s what insurance is, it’s a vehicle to transfer the risk so that if something blows up, that there’s some way to make you whole. Those are the three basic strategies of risk management.
Larry: Avoid, minimize, or transfer, right?
Larry: That’s good. What are some ways you can minimize the risk?
Darrin: Well, I think that, you know, insurance companies are always looking to minimize the risk so that’s like when you go to buy a property, that’s why they ask you all those questions, right?
Larry: It is really to educate you, the client, to help minimize that risk which helps you and the insurance company, correct?
Darrin: Correct, because if you – let’s just say you’ve got two properties and one has got, you know, roof problems and it’s got cracks in the sidewalk and it’s got, you know, old electrical panel, maybe it’s fuses, maybe it’s Zinsco or Federal Pacific or, you know, you’ve got old galvanized pipes that are maybe past their life expectancy. You can go on and on, but if you look at that as opposed to a brand new property that’s got all new systems with life, you know, plenty of years of life, which one do you think is going to give you more trouble, or potentially more trouble? And I think that anybody that’s been working real estate or, you know, thinks through it a little bit, would recognize that the property with the older systems is going to create potentially more risk, more potential repairs needed, more cost to fix and repair or just, you know, potential, you know, if it’s insured, a claim, that’s why the insurance companies are always looking and saying, “Hey, wait a minute, how old is the roof,” right? How old is the electrical system? What kind of electrical system? What kind of electrical panel? Tell us about the plumbing. What type of pipes does it have? You know, heating system, you know, how old is the furnace? What kind of furnace? Has it been maintained? And then you go out and you look on the grounds, you know, for trip and fall kind of stuff and if your sidewalks have cracks and uneven surfaces that are potential trip and fall hazards. You know, that’s basically the insurance company. The underwriter’s job is to avoid signing the insurance company up for a claim, right? And so when you are a buyer, if you know these things that the insurance company is looking for, it can position you in a better way to maybe negotiate with the seller that these repairs that are gonna need to be made, or at least budget properly for what it’s gonna cost you to insure your property, because I think one of the things I see a lot is when people are making an offer, they’ll look at what’s a seller been paying for insurance and if the insurance has only cost that seller $300 a year, then they’re confident that that’s what it’s gonna cost them, right? When they go call their agent and they tell them about the property and they run it through their model, they find out now it’s gonna cost ’em $600 or $800 a year.
Darrin: You know, or whatever that is, why is that? And so, when you try and – you know, we talked about minimize your risk, if these things are identified by your new company but they haven’t been identified by your old company, those are things that you need to address so you can keep your coverage affordable.
Larry: That’s really, really good. That’s really good. So, what you’re saying is by understanding a little bit more about what an insurance underwriter looks for, you can actually look at those things yourself and even talk to the seller and use it as a negotiating tool, you know, “Hey, look, I’m gonna have to fix this sidewalk here because this is a trip hazard and my insurance company is gonna make me fix this so it’s gotta be added to the repair cost.” Correct?
Darrin: Yeah. Exactly, exactly, and I think that it’s probably not something that gets recognized as much on a single-family home as it does on the commercial, you know, on more multifamily properties and stuff but it’s –
Darrin: And it’s inherent, you know, I just was looking at one myself here the other day and, you know, down in the Carolinas and kinda Gulf Coast states, you guys have those windy events they call hurricanes and, you know, they can be – they can cause a lot of damage and if you own the property outright and you don’t have a bank on the property, you can forego that wind coverage if you choose to, right?
Darrin: But if you’re buying and you’re gonna have a bank involved, the bank’s not gonna let you do that, so if the seller’s insurance numbers shows that he’s, you know, paying $3,000 a year and you use that for your underwriting, you’re gonna be, you know, really in for a surprise when you find out when you go to buy your policy that it’s gonna cost you substantially more. So things like that. I guess that’s the, you know, when you say “minimize,” how can you minimize your risk with insurance? I would say definitely do your due diligence and talk to your broker sooner in the deal rather than later so you can address whatever concerns they may have, get the answers, because a lot of times, what I find is that the selling broker, they’re really not interested in probing too deep to find out what lies beneath. You know, their job, if you think about the listing broker, their job is to get the property listed, right? If they can’t get a listing, they can’t make a sale so they wanna get it listed and once they get it listed, then it’s up to you, the buyer, to find out what might be lurking or potentially a problem. So, due diligence, get your insurance broker involved early.
Larry: That’s good. Get your insurance broker involved early. You know, that’s really, really good advice. I like that. So, let’s talk about as an investor. I don’t care if you’re a brand new investor or an experienced investor, what are the different types of insurance that an investor needs to be aware of that are available because most people just think insurance, okay, you know, homeowner’s insurance or a fire policy or a landlord policy, but there’s the odd builder’s risk, there’s all different kinds. Can you kinda go through the different kinds of insurance and when it’s used?
Darrin: Yeah, absolutely, and I appreciate you recognizing there is a difference, and I think the first thing I would ask is that if – or I would point out, is that you have to know what is your strategy, you know? If you are – if you’re gonna be a buy-hold operator, that’s a different strategy than somebody that’s flipping a property, right? Or if somebody’s buying a property that needs renovation. If you’re buying a property and you’re gonna operate it, it usually implies that the building is functional and that the repairs needed are minimal, okay? And that’s gonna be probably your least costly insurance, it’s gonna be your most normal sense of what one would expect to have with insurance. You mentioned builder’s risk. A lot of times, you and I were talking earlier about, you know, homes maybe are vacant or that need some renovations or builder special or, you know, however you wanna phrase that, but the underwriter – again, the underwriter’s job is to determine what is the condition of the property and, from there, determine what they’re comfortable, willing, or comfortable to offer coverage for. And if you have a property that’s vacant that needs a lot of work, the first thing is you’re probably gonna have to get a builder’s risk policy. A builder’s risk policy is designed to cover the work that’s being done to the property and I’m just talking about the physical property, so if you have, you know, your walls, your roof, your floors, and you’re going in there and you’re redoing kitchens and baths and new roof, new windows, doors, whatever that might be, that’s not ready to be occupied, it’s a lot of work going on there so builder’s risk policy is designed to cover the structure as it is when you buy it plus all of the improvements you make to it and so the value is typically most companies will end up with a replacement cost number, so, you know, what it would cost for you to build the property back, but if something happens in the process, you won’t get that full amount, you’ll get what it was when you started plus whatever you’ve put into it, so if you’re halfway through your improvements, you would get what you started with plus whatever your improvements are as opposed to a full replacement cost value. The other thing that I wanna point out there is that a lot of times when people are investing, that’s as far as they think the insurance through, is that the builder’s risk, and the reason why they think that is because there’s a bank or a lender or somebody that requires that they have insurance, right? So, in that instance, you have to understand that that coverage, while it’s in your name, it’s to benefit the lender, right? Because the lender has put their money into your property, they’ve got a lien against that property. If anything happens to that property, they wanna make sure that they’re protected, right?
Darrin: So, we’ve got the property covered. The structure covered. The thing that I think a lot of people fail to recognize is the liability portion of the equation. And liability is things that happen to other people that you’re responsible for, okay? Other people’s – their person or their property, so if you have somebody that comes on your property and they trip or fall or they get hurt, that builder’s risk policy isn’t gonna respond to their injuries, okay? So you need to have some sort of a – at a minimum, some sort of a trip and fall policy, and I recommend that – it depends on what you’re doing. If you’re doing one property, you can – there’s different companies out there that may just be able to give you both trip and fall plus the builder’s risk, but if you’re doing, you know, I’ve got one client that does fifty plus a month, okay? You wanna make sure you have something where you can extend liability to each one of these properties and so that if anything were to happen, you don’t wanna lose everything you’re building because of a – somebody got hurt on a property and they sue you for everything you’ve got, right? And then the third piece to this that I’ll bring up that I think it’s missed a lot of times is the completed operations. Alright, we talked about trip and fall which is if something happens at the property, but once you sell the property, if you’ve done any of the work, whether you put the windows, doors, roof, put the new plumbing in, electrical system, whatever it is, if any of that goes haywire and ends up causing injuries to the property or to the person and you are the seller, they’re gonna come back to you, okay? And if you don’t have insurance and/or you haven’t properly transferred the risk to your subcontractors, okay, that’s the other thing, if you’re hiring subcontractors, you wanna have contract between you and your contractors that ties you to them and requires that they insure you on their policy for any of the work they’re doing. I’ve seen it happen and it’s not always that it happens, it’s not – you know, every day it doesn’t happen, but when it happens, it can really go wrong. For somebody first starting out, they’re not aware, they may not understand all the exposure they have, but I can tell you that if you learn the hard way, you’ll never forget. We always recommend laying odds like we did, you know, the builder’s risk is the lowest level, premises liability is the next level, and then the third, if you’re doing the work, make sure you’re protecting yourself from any future liability. That make sense?
Larry: Absolutely it does. Absolutely. Hey, it’s really good. Like you said, it’s just a transference of risk, right?
Darrin: Right, right.
Larry: So, it’s really good. So, builder’s risk is like if somebody’s buying a property and they’re gonna fix it up and sell it or fix it up and rent it out, that covers the period while it’s vacant, contractors are coming in and out, and stuff like that, right?
Darrin: But it’s just the structure. If something happens to the structure. It’s not about anybody getting hurt, it’s just whatever happens to that structure, yeah.
Larry: Right, right, right. It’s the – yeah, if somebody breaks in and vandalizes, steals out the copper, steals the building material that’s inside waiting to be installed, all that good stuff. But they still need the trip and fall.
Larry: Yeah, I’ve never heard that term, trip and fall.
Darrin: Well, premises liability, you know, it’s any –
Larry: That’s the liability, it’s just like – that’s the term I know, it’s just liability.
Darrin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, and liability gets divided into two – there’s two sections of liability. One is the premises, which is the address, you know, where the property’s located, if anything happens on that property while you own it. And then the completed operations is that once you sold it and you’re gone and you’re on to the next one, if you’re, you know, having dinner with your family on Thanksgiving and the phone rings and it’s somebody you sold the house to that’s all irate because there’s, you know, water pouring in through the light fixtures or, you know, that kind of thing. That’s a completed operations, and –
Larry: Like if you used some PEX plumbing that has a class action suit against them, or if you use some Chinese drywall or something.
Darrin: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are known issues and it all goes back to, again, you’re – how can you protect yourself down the road? I mean, ’cause it would be a shame to go and make all this money and feel like you’re doing really well only to find out that you’ve got an exposure there that you could have solved for a little bit of money and had somebody to defend you and settle the, you know, or to fix, or pay for the fixes. It happens. I don’t think it happens as much as it – I haven’t seen it as much lately and I think maybe it’s, you know, people are learning that, but I still see occasionally the person that went to the seminar and they’re all ready to borrow some hard money and they’ve got a property they need to get some insurance on and they just want the builder’s risk, you know, insurance and we start asking about the liability, they’re like, “No, no, no, I’ve got my – my contractor, he has insurance,” you know?
Darrin: And I will say, the contractor has insurance but are you – have you got a contract with the contractor that requires him to name you as an additional insured? You can do that and the only thing I’ll say to that is that if your contractor is out doing work all over town and it just so happens he’s doing it wrong all over town and there’s claims that had come in ahead of your claim and all of a sudden there’s, you know, there’s a line of claims that put reserves on his limits that exceed, you know, what his policy limits are, you could still be without so, again, it’s a matter of making certain you are taking care of you, not always relying on everybody else or that nothing will go wrong.
Larry: Exactly. That’s really, really good. Can you tell us a little bit about, I mean, I’ve had builder’s risk in the past because I used to do rehabs, I don’t do rehabs anymore, but I used to do rehabs and we had what’s called a monthly self-audit builder’s risk. Can you explain a little bit about maybe not necessarily just that but kinda how a builder’s risk works? Because you’ve got properties every month coming on the policy and going off the policy.
Darrin: Sure. And just to be clear, I’m assuming you were doing some volume at the time when you were – if you had that kind of policy –
Darrin: Because if you’re doing, you know, I’d say north of ten or twelve a month, then that’s probably the way to go because it truly, it looks at just what is your exposure for that month, so if you bring three on and you sell four, then – or, you know, whatever that is, you got a running total as opposed to just buying one policy for a year on a property and you’re only gonna have it for a few weeks or a few months or whatever kinda thing, so if you’re doing a lot of properties, that’s a great way to go. If you’re just getting started and you’re starting with one and you’re gonna fix it and – this is the classic case I’ve seen is somebody calls me, “Hey, we’re gonna be in and out of this thing in, you know, six months, tops,” you know, and they only wanna buy the six months policy. I always caution against that on the first one until you get your systems in place. I would recommend that you buy the annual policy because what happens is that if you don’t get the property solid in six months, then you have to buy an extension and by the time you buy the extension, you could be – you could have paid more than you would have paid one time for the year and then if you go through that first extension and now you say, “Oh, we’re still not done, it’s kinda slow,” whatever, then we have to go back to the underwriter and say we need a second extension. Sometimes they’re willing to do that, sometimes they’re going like, “Well, what’s going on? Why do we need a second extension? Do these guys know what they’re doing?”
Darrin: So, if you’re just starting out, I would encourage you to get the annual policy, get your systems worked out, know how to get in and out of a property, know who your contractors are, know what you’re doing, and then as your volume increases, I would encourage you to look at something more like you’re talking about, like a monthly reporting form.
Larry: That’s good. Okay, so those are really good things that a contractor’s gonna need, or I should say a rehabber is gonna need, a guy who’s doing fix and flips. What kind of insurance does a landlord need?
Darrin: Sure. So, again, depending on what you have, I typically work with people that have, you know, more than a dozen single families, if they’ve been working with people that do single families.
Darrin: I like to provide like a master policy because it gives you the flexibility if you buy a property today, you can call me, we can add it to the policy, we can get higher liability limits. What you need though is just for coverage you wanna make sure you get the structure covered. You wanna make sure you protect your loss of rents. I was telling you, the property my wife and I bought down in Florida, when I was going through the purchase, I recognized I don’t do a lot of business down there so it wasn’t, you know, I know I can insure properties down there but I asked the broker, I said, “Do you have anybody you use or you recommend for insurance?” They made a recommendation, I contacted them, and what I found out was that they, you know, one, I don’t know how good they were because they didn’t offer to protect my loss of rents, you know? And I was going like, holy moly, you know, first off, I’m certain the bank’s gonna want that but this is my – you know, I mean, this is – if something happens, if the roof blows off and we, you know, can’t operate or we can’t rent the property out, there’s gonna be a loss of income there so definitely you wanna make sure that you get your rents protected.
Darrin: Liability is, again, like we talked about before, it gives you basically the trip and fall and if anybody gets hurt on your property, there’s coverage for you there. And one thing I do like to point out to people is that when you’re insuring the building, you wanna make certain you’re getting a real replacement cost value. I’ve seen it happen too many times where people buy it for a number that’s low, they go, “No, no, I’ve only, you know, I only bought it for that, I only wanna insure it for that.” The policy has a penalty clause in it if you underinsure it and if you have a loss, you may not get what you expected if you underinsure your property, so I always encourage people to make sure you’ve ensured to the replacement cost value to avoid that penalty as well. But, so, as far as an operator, you wanna get your building, your rents, make sure you got your building insured for the value, your liability, if you have multiple properties, master policy I recommend ’cause then you only have to deal with insurance once a year, you’re not getting, you know, every day you go to the mailbox, another envelope with just a policy number and a premium due and you don’t know what it’s for so I’d say master policy or something as you grow your portfolio.
Larry: That’s great. That’s great. So, are there any other kind of policies that a landlord would need?
Darrin: Sure, and it depends on how involved you are. If you are managing the property yourself or if you have a property manager engaged in between you, but there’s, you know, and if you have employees. If you have employees, you’re gonna need worker’s comp, recommend you look at employment practice liability, covers hiring, firing kinda thing. If there is property management professional liability which covers any kind of, you know, discrimination, if you make an error in screening clients and some are, you get a lawsuit – it will get you there –
Larry: And that’s what? That’s called what again?
Darrin: Property management professional liability or property management errors and omissions.
Larry: Oh, you know, okay, good. Good. That’s what I know it as.
Darrin: Yep. And a couple other things I always like to point out. You know, be sure you understand that the standard policy excludes flood. It’s also gonna exclude earth movement, if you live in an area or you have property in an area where there’s earthquakes. And always I encourage people to look at umbrella. You know, if you have just one property, it might not necessarily be as important, but as you grow your portfolio, an umbrella is a very inexpensive way to get higher limits should something go wrong and protect your assets.
Larry: That’s good. That’s good. So, Darrin, what kind of insurance would a wholesaler need? You know, guy who’s just doing fix and flips and may or may not own the property, you know? I mean, sometimes you have to do a double closing where you buy it at ten o’clock and sell it at ten thirty, sometimes you just do assignments. It’s more of a business than an investment. What kind of coverage would a wholesaler need?
Darrin: Well, it’s funny you bring that up ’cause I have seen guys go with almost nothing. I wouldn’t recommend that. I would encourage you to get at least – and, again, it depends on how you’re set up. If you’re set up as a business or if you’re just set up as an individual. I would encourage you to get a policy, period. Just, you know, business owner policy that recognizes you have some sort of operations, that you’ve got some property and some sort of liability, but if you’re not taking possession of the property so it’s never really going into your portfolio, you’re not ever gonna operate the property, at the minimum, you’d wanna make certain you have some sort of a – just a standard package or what we call a business owner policy. It will give you some basic general liability, you know, in some property, but I would say that’s just the barest minimal amount. Again, I’d say, if you have any employees, if you’ve got people calling, making calls or doing anything like that, you should make sure you have worker’s comp as well.
Larry: Good. That’s good. So basically, basic liability insurance plus if you have any employees, you need some sort of worker’s comp.
Darrin: Yep. Yep.
Larry: That is good. So, Darrin, if somebody wanted to reach out to you, if they had questions about insurance, about their portfolio, about their business, about getting set up with you, how would they reach out to you?
Darrin: Sure. So, my direct line, I’m gonna give you just my cellphone, probably the best way, it’s 503-504-7619. That’s my cellphone. Or you can reach out to me, e-mail is firstname.lastname@example.org.
Larry: Awesome. Awesome. Man, I really, really do appreciate you being on here today. I appreciate you taking the time. It’s really, I mean a lot of people don’t think about insurance as being, you know, educational and informative, it’s just something I gotta have, right?
Larry: But really you’ve made it informational, educational, and I think you’ve shared a lot of good information today and I really appreciate it.
Darrin: Sure, and I appreciate it, Larry. And one more thing if I could, just wanna invite your listeners to check out – I do have a podcast, in fact, you’re a guest on it, and I encourage everybody to check it out. It’s Commercial Real Estate Pro Network, also known as CREPN Radio, and we have weekly guests, either investors or professionals and get into different aspects of real estate investing.
Larry: Great. That sounds good, man. Guys, check it out. Check it out. So, thank you so much for being on. I really, really appreciate it and, guys, please share this, please like it, please give us some feedback, we really appreciate that, and keep watching. We got a lot of archives at brainpickapro.com. we also have the BRAG Show, so BRAGradio.com for that, so thanks everybody for watching. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Darrin.
Darrin: Thanks, Larry.