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Tax-Free Investing with Carl Fischer


In today's show, Larry invited his good friend Carl Fischer. Carl knows a lot about self-directed retirement accounts, retirement plans, tax-deferred, tax-free, types of accounts, and many more.

Carl began his investing career in 1970s when he was employed as a rocket scientist at Kennedy Space Center in Cape Canaveral, Florida. He is presently one of the founders and principals of CAMA Self-Directed IRA, LLC (CamaPlan).

Carl has implemented plans and managed over 20 million dollars in real estate transactions. His real estate investments include commercial and residential properties, real property, notes, and mortgages. He has been able to increase his personal net worth and control many endeavors with the self-direction tools available.

In this episode, Carl shared how to invest in self-directed IRAs and other accounts and other key things you need to take note of.


  • Who Carl Fischer is
  • Tax-free accounts versus tax-deferred accounts
  • Different types of accounts
  • Best type of account to have
  • Health Savings Account (HSA)
  • High-deductible health plan (HDHP)
  • Educational Savings Account (ESA)
  • Type of investments you can do from all the accounts
  • Things you can do with a retirement account
  • Prohibited transactions and disqualified people
  • Leveraging your IRA
  • Unrelated Business Income Tax (UBIT)
  • Creating a business on your retirement account versus long-term investment in an IRA


  • "Whatever you're good at, that's what you kind of want to figure out to invest in."
  • "Do your due diligence on any investment before you make the investment, not after they stop paying."


  • CamaPlan
  • Contact information: 877-559-4430


Larry: Welcome to the Brain-Pick-A-Pro show live from Lake Wiley, South Carolina and all the way down somewhere in Florida relaxing, vacaying and having fun and making money at the same time is my good long-time, old friend Carl Fischer from CamaPlan. What’s up, buddy?

Carl: Not too much, man. Like you said, just trying to get on vacation trying to get over the Bahamas here. We’re taking the boat out and going there fishing for 4 or 5 days.

Larry: Are you really? And I wasn’t invited? What’s up with that?

Carl: No, you were invited but you were watching fireworks and, you know, loving the 242nd birthday of the United States. You know what I mean?

Larry: That’s funny. Man, I hope you guys catch a lot. I hope you do. That’s awesome. I can’t wait to go myself.

Carl: Well, let’s set up a time. I’ve told you to do that. Bring Pam and Noah and we’ll just go out and fish, and it will be a great experience for everybody.

Larry: That would be a lot of fun, man. I’m telling you the biggest fish I ever caught was with you down in, where were we, in Cabo?

Carl: Cabo, San Lucas, yeah.

Larry: Oh, man! Now, guys, this guy Carl? He knows how to fish. He is a legend. I’m telling you not just in real estate and in self-directed retirement accounts, but he is a legend fisherman, that’s for sure. I’m telling you I’ve never had so much fun fishing as to when we went down in Cabo. And you know how to cook them too, that’s for sure.

Carl: Yeah, we were eating fish for three days I think.

Larry: I know, right? There was a bunch of us staying down there in a condo in Cabo, San Lucas and hung out over at Sammy Hagar’s place Cabo Wabo for a while. That was a lot of fun, wasn’t it?

Carl: It was. That’s why I say let’s get down here, you know, let’s go fishing.

Larry: There you go, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. So, let me do a little introduction here. I know we’ve just been kind of catching up while we’re recording. But, guys, Carl Fischer? Nobody knows more about self-directed retirement accounts, retirement plans, tax-deferred, tax-free, types of accounts, all this stuff than Carl Fischer. I’ve known him for many, many, many years. I am a client of his, gone on vacation with him and his family many, many times. I had to get him on here and it’s hard to get him scheduled because he’s now got a lifestyle where you don’t have to work every day. Right? So I’m catching him on vacation just before he goes out on the boat. Right, Carl?

Carl: That’s exactly right. You know, I actually forgot we had this interview this morning and it popped up on my calendar, so I pulled the truck back in and came back in to do this and then I’m leaving.

Larry: You are already on the road headed to the boat, huh?

Carl: Pretty much and this popped up.

Larry: Oh, man! I’d rather be with you there than doing this interview.

Carl: Well, we’ll set it up for sure.

Larry: So Carl, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, about your real estate investing and then we’re going to talk about self-directed and investing tax-deferred and tax-free.

Carl: Sure. You know, my whole family started out in real estate, my mom and dad, their moms and dads were in real estate, so I was basically born into real estate. And as a matter of fact, I’ve just seen an article back in 1934 for my uncle opening up the first Broadway Realty office in New Jersey and that came out two weeks ago from one of my cousins. So, yeah, very interesting there. So I ended up being in real estate because I grew up around it, graduated, you know, as an engineer and then did rocket science work down at Kennedy Space Center. But all along I was buying property, you know, not only for my own home but for rental and for resale and I just liked getting into real estate. And then when my dad died, I actually learned about self-directed IRAs and turning real estate income into tax-free income for life and that’s how I transitioned out of rocket launching into self-directed IRAs.

Larry: It's an accurate statement to say you really are a rocket scientist.

Carl: Well, I was. I’m not out there anymore but I do watch them. But yes, I used to launch on the shuttle and some of the military secret launches.

Larry: That’s awesome, man. I love that, I love that. So let’s start out first, tell us about tax-free investing because not a lot of people know that you can use a retirement account or 401(k) or HAS or whatever it is that you can buy real estate. So tell us a little bit about maybe the different types of accounts and we’ll kind of go from there.

Carl: Sure. Well, let’s first talk about tax-free accounts versus tax-deferred accounts.

Larry: Okay, good.

Carl: And like a traditional IRA which were the first IRAs that were introduced back in the 1970s, they’re all tax-deferred. What that means is when you put money into them, you know, you earn money at your job, you put money into them, and you get a deduction for putting that money into an IRA or retirement account. And then whatever you invest in along the way up until you're 70 ½ or 59 ½ and start taking it out, all that money accumulates without having to pay taxes so you more money to invest but then when you do take it out, at 70 ½ or 59 ½, depending on your circumstances or any time in between those, you have to pay tax on that money.

Larry: Right.

Carl: It's still a good deal but I don't know what the tax rate is going to be when I pull money out, so I personally prefer the tax-free account or a lot of people refer to it as a Roth account for the senator out of Delaware that put it together. Those were introduced in 1998 and what that means is when you put the money in, you don’t get a deduction for it. You pay the tax right then to the government but then everything that accumulates after that, all the earnings on that money is tax-free. So if you buy a piece of real estate, let’s say, a single family home and you pay $50,000 for it today and in 10, 20, or 30 years it’s worth $500,000, in the Roth IRA you won’t pay any taxes. In the tax-deferred account, you’ll pay taxes on that $500,000.

Larry: What are the different types of accounts?

Carl: Yeah. So the Roth account is a Roth IRA which is a personal account. The Roth 401(k) is a business account. The Health Savings Accounts are great because the money going in is tax-deductible and anything coming out for medical expenses is tax-free, those are really good. Then you have the traditional IRA which is tax-deferred. You have a SEP or a SIMPLE IRA which is also tax-deferred and you have an educational savings account which is a lot like a 529 but you can self-direct the educational savings account and that’s another tax-free account. So you have a difference between the tax-free and the tax-deferred accounts.

Larry: That’s awesome. And I’m writing down notes as I think about stuff to do. Most everybody knows about an IRA, right, or 401(k), that sort of thing. What do you think is the best type of account to have?

Carl: Well, I have several, okay? I think they’re all good and they all have a certain place to go for it. I personally love the Roth IRA but sometimes you make too much money to make a contribution to that so you have to use what they call the backdoor IRA which is putting money in a traditional IRA and then converting it to a Roth. But if you use a Roth 401(k), you're allowed to do that no matter what your income is and you can put more money into that. In my case I’m allowed to put $24,000 into the Roth portion of a 401(k) because of over 59 ½.

Then I have several ESA (Educational Savings Account) for my children, for my grandchildren, I should say. My kids are out of college now. Then obviously I have the Health Savings Account. Next year I’m not going to be able to contribute anymore to that but I’ve taken that account and I bought notes with it and those notes will bring me enough money every year to pay my deductible and, you know, whatever I have to do on Medicare. I’m not even sure what to do with that yet, we're just figuring that out.

Larry: Let’s break down a couple of these. Let’s talk about the HSA first, the Health Savings Account. The cool thing about a Health Savings Account is that it’s not use it or lose it. You can build that account up and then reimburse yourself tax-free for what’s called qualified medical expenses that you had 5 or 10 years ago as long as the account was open then. Right, Carl?

Carl: Yeah, absolutely. I opened up my account, you know, 10 years ago. I think I’ve got 60,000, 75,000, 80,000 in it at this point in time. I probably have, I don't know, you know, for 10 or 15 years whenever it came about. Well, I guess it hadn’t been that long. It's only been about I think it came out in 2006 but I didn’t get into it in 2010 because I didn’t understand it. So, I’ve had it about 8 years and I have a note in there that just keeps making payments to me every month. I have my medical expenses, you know, whatever I pay for physical. You know, Vicki had a couple of heart problems and things like that and so I think we’ve got like $25,000 or $30,000 worth of medical expenses over the past 8 years.

So out of that 70,000 that’s in my account I can pull that 30,000 out at any time by just requesting a distribution and if the IRS asks me about it, I just show them my…

Larry: Receipts.

Carl: Receipts, right, from the medical expenses. And 8 years ago I put on my medical expenses, I gave Vicki a card and myself a card and we put all those expenses on a credit card, so all I really have to do is look at those credit card receipts and things from the last 10 years or 8 years from 2010 forward, so that’s how I’m tracking all those expenses.

Larry: That is awesome. That is really, really good. I never thought about that. But also, what Pam does, my wife, what Pam does is she has a binder with everything, every medical expense. Even when we go to the doctor, she tracks the mileage because mileage is also a qualified medical expense as well, right?

Carl: It is. Yup, all that stuff. If they have massages, etc. are all on there. I’m not down to that level but I’ll just show you, this is a card I carry right here. I put that medical thing on it so I don’t use it for anything else when I’m using it. But Pam is a lot better record keeper than me.

Larry: Pam is hardcore about keeping track of things, right?

Carl: Yes. Exactly.

Larry: You know how hardcore she is about being organized. I mean, all of our cans in the pantry are faced the same way. Right?

Carl: Yeah, probably. I should have her visit Vicky more. Don’t let them watch this video.

Larry: I know, right? That’s good. So that’s an HSA. You also have to have what’s called an HDHP health plan too. Tell us about that.

Carl: Yeah. I mean, most people can talk to their employers or their insurance providers which are, you know, they’ll tell them a high-deductible health plan is there. High-deductible used to be high, you know, used to be in the couple of thousands. Now you can get them as low as $1500 I think and maybe even a thousand if you're single. But you just ask your insurance provider or tell them “Hey, I want a high-deductible health plan that I can have an HSA with.” The reason I like them was my premiums were cut in half and I was able to make tax-deductible contributions to the health savings account, so I was saving money on both sides of the equation and because I was fortunate enough to be able to pay any medical expenses out of pocket, I just kept all these expenses so that if I do want to have a motorcycle or buy your Harley, I can now take it out of my HSA and not be taxed on it and have a tax for the Harley.

Larry: Yeah. As long as your doctor says that you need a Harley for therapy, right?

Carl: Yeah. No, I don’t even need it because I’ve got those old receipts I paid for.

Larry: Right, right, right.

Carl: The doctor didn’t even have to tell me, yeah. But no, he did say I needed a Harley to relax myself and to keep my blood pressure in check. I’m only kidding.

Larry: I love that, man. Mine’s in the shop right now. I can’t wait to get it out.

Carl: Yeah, you're missing some good driving days now.

Larry: I know, right? It’s been in the shop for about a week, some kind of recall. So let’s talk about ESAs. You mentioned you had ESAs for your kids but now your kids are grown. So talk a little bit about ESAs but also how you can continue to move that from person to person that may need it and it can go on forever and ever.

Carl: Okay. As an example, you know, my kids are all grown but you know what happens when your kids get grown?

Larry: They have kids.

Carl: Exactly, and I think you're in that same boat. So the only thing I don’t like about them is the contribution is only $2,000 a year per child. But I have five grandkids now so I can give $10,000 a year, put it in there and all that money grows tax-free. It can be used for kindergarten, first grade, elementary, high school, college and post-college work.

Larry: Until they’re how old?

Carl: Until they’re 30 years old. But what happens and we’ve got many clients, you know, whose parents put money in for them and as they grew older and they got out of school, anything left in their ESA was transferred to one of the younger siblings and when the youngest ones get out, they transfer them now back to the older sibling’s kids or their own kids. So, you know, as an example my son who’s now, one just turned 30, he had money left over because he got a scholarship, he put that money into his daughter’s ESA.

Larry: That’s great. Now, do you just transfer the ESA, the name on the ESA? Or does he actually pull it out and then start another one for his daughter?

Carl: No, no, you just change the beneficiary on the ESA from—

Larry: From him to her.

Carl: Yeah.

Larry: That’s really good. That is really good. Alright, let’s talk about the type of investments that you can do with a retirement account.

Carl: Well, not only retirement but these ESAs and HSAs.

Larry: Oh, yeah, I mean all of them.

Carl: Yeah, all of these accounts we’ve been talking about, you know, like I said I primarily am a big real estate person and you know that. As I’m getting older, I’m transitioning from real estate into loans and mortgages which I think, yeah, notes, which I think you're familiar with. There’s also some private placements and some funds that you can get into that put a bunch of notes together or a bunch of real estates a little bit like a REIT, you know, some other investment funds that just what I call mitigate the risk because you're doing it over a lot of different pieces of property or notes. So we call those private placements.

Then of course there’s gold, silver, and precious metals and, you know, there’s sports tickets and personal property and loans on cars. I pretty much don’t want anybody doing non-collateral life or unsecured loans.

Larry: I don’t blame you, I don’t blame you. There’s a lot of stuff that you can do in a retirement account as well. It's not just notes in real estate, right?

Carl: No, it's whatever you're thinking about. I mean, tax liens, notes, what else is out there? There’s accounts receivable that people do use. There’s tax fees that people buy.

Larry: Options.

Carl: Options, right. Whatever you can think of basically except alcohol, life insurance and collectibles. I mean, we’ve had people buy llamas, we’ve had them buy racing horses, so there’s, you know, whatever you're good at, that’s what you kind of want to figure out to invest in. There’s vertical farming that’s been out there that’s been looked at. So there’s a variety. Whatever you're good at, that’s what I think you should try to turn into tax-free income for life. Intellectual rights.

Larry: Right. There’s so many things you can do. Talk a little bit about prohibited transactions and disqualified people.

Carl: Yeah. I hate to talk to people about things like that. But one of the things, like I said you can’t use alcohol, life insurance or collectibles such as antique cars, coins, precious metals that are collectible, pneumatic ones.

But the other thing that you can’t do, and you mentioned it, was disqualified people. So if you have an IRA you can’t deal with yourself. You can’t. Your IRA can’t buy a property or lend money to your spouse or your parents or your kids, any lineal ascendants or descendants. Those are all disqualified people. Any fiduciary you have or partner you have is also a disqualified person. So you don’t want your IRA buying or selling or lending or doing business with any of those disqualified persons.

Larry: Right. That is very important.

Carl: Yeah. So you want to keep away from that. You don’t want to be living in any of your properties that your IRA own. You don’t want to be doing any sweat equity in those properties because that’s considered prohibited because basically you would be contributing to your IRA over the limits that were allowed. So those types of things are out there. I basically tell people if you're getting a benefit from what your IRA is doing now, then it’s most likely prohibited and an example of that is if you're a real estate agent and you're selling a piece of real estate to your IRA, you can’t take a commission off of that sale because then you’d be getting a benefit right now from your IRA doing that transaction.

Larry: Yeah. Like you said, the most important thing to remember is you can’t personally benefit from your retirement account.

Carl: Right. At this time. Obviously when you retire, it's done.

Larry: That’s good. That is good. So talk a little bit about leverage. Because you can buy real estate and even borrow money on that real estate if your IRA doesn’t have enough money to pay for the whole asset, right?

Carl: Yeah. No, I love that aspect. It’s really the only way you can take an IRA and leverage it that I know of. And what do banks love to lend on? They love to lend on real estate. As a result of that real estate, whether it’s in an IRA or not, banks a lot of times will lend on it. It has to be a nonrecourse loan because the IRS makes that the rule. But a lot of banks have gotten onboard with it and just reduced their loan-to-value down, you know, to 70 percent. So therefore you can borrow 70 percent if you've got 30 percent down in your IRA. And that’s from a bank.

Now there’s other people other that have money sitting in, you know, CDs at 1 or 2 percent and if they can turn around and get 5, 6, 7, 8 percent by lending it on a piece of property that they can have a mortgage and lien on if they don’t pay it, they’re happy to do that. So you can get that money from banks, you can get it from individuals. You can get it from other companies. You can get it from other IRAs or 401(k)’s, Roth or traditional. So there’s a lot of way to fund a purchase of real estate in your IRA if you don’t have it. You can also partner with a couple of other IRAs.

But I’d be remiss if I didn’t tell you, Larry, that one of the things if you do use your IRA for this and you do get a loan, there’s a good probability that you’ll have to pay what’s called unrelated business income tax or unrelated debt financed income, which is at trust rates. But I tell people not to worry about that. If you're in that situation, you're making good money and, you know, if you do it in a Roth it’s going to be tax-free for life after you pay that UBIT if you have to do that. But you get to take the expenses, you know, the depreciation and any interest expenses, etc. off of that number so you're only going to pay tax on 70 percent of the income if you had a 70 percent loan-to-value, if that makes sense.

Larry: Right. It's a ratio. Like if you borrow 50 percent, you're going to pay taxes on 50 percent of the income that the asset brings in.

Carl: Right. Minus the depreciation and any other expenses.

Larry: Right. Because if you had UDFI, you can take the depreciation there.

Carl: Yes, absolutely. Seventy percent of it, that ratio, you take that ratio on it.

Larry: Right, very good. Man, this is really, really good stuff. Now, talk about flipping houses, wholesaling houses versus long-term investments in an IRA. Because the IRS doesn’t want you to create a business in your retirement account or any of your tax-deferred types of accounts, right?

Carl: Yeah. You have been listening and paying attention over the past 2 years. You seem to know a lot about this. Yeah, one of the things, the reasons you get the deduction for real estate in your IRA is because they want people to own real estate and have that as one of their assets going into retirement because it seems to be one of those that are paying out and people make money with. You know, so some people say, “Well, I’m flipping these houses,” and they’re doing, you know, 15 or 20 houses a year. And the IRS says, well, that’s not a long-term hold for your house. What you're doing is creating inventory with real estate a lot like Macy’s does with suits or dresses. So you're actually a business, the houses are not assets but they’re inventory so it looks like you're in a business for profit and the IRS said it’s alright to do that but again you're going to be paying that unrelated business taxable income and if you do that, that goes up to 39% after like $15,000.

So if you're already in the maximum tax bracket, I don’t see any reason not to do it. If you're not in that max tax bracket, then you could be doing this outside of your IRA and only paying 10, 15, 20, 30 percent tax versus 39 percent tax.

So don’t make these things a business because, you know, unless you're making a lot of money and you're already in the top tax bracket, then you can use your IRA or Roth IRA as a business and pay the tax on it and continue to grow your IRA. But it is something that you need to watch out for. People always say “Well, it’s illegal to do that.” It’s not illegal to do that, you just have to pay a tax on it.

Now, people will buy 3 or 4 houses and own them and get rent for them, and then buy the 5th house and find out that they don’t like it or it’s in a neighborhood that they don’t want to be in or they need to do a repair on one of their other properties and they end up selling that house and they might not have owned it for a year yet but they’ve turned around and “flipped” it. But their intent wasn’t to flip it. Their intent was to keep it and if you do one like that or two a year depending on what your other assets are. I don’t think the IRS is going to say anything negative about you for that.

Larry: Right. In fact, that’s one of the IRS guidelines is what was your intent when you bought it, right?

Carl: Exactly. And if you intend to keep it for long-term and can prove that then you're going to be there. But it's hard if you're flipping 20 houses a year and say hey, your intent was to keep it unless maybe you're getting 100 houses a year and keeping 80 of them.

Larry: Well you know what the million-dollar question is. Everybody is going to ask “How many houses a year can I flip in my retirement account before I have to start paying you?”

Carl: Yeah. What your intent, a lot of CPAs say “Oh, it’s four before you're in business.” But again, what does it look like to the IRS? What’s it going to look like to a jury or a judge that’s making a decision on this? If you have a bunch of homes and you do 3 or 4 flips, if you've owned them for over a year and a day, now it’s long-term, so that answer is gray in most cases but, you know, you can definitely see the black and the whites like we talked about, but the exact number, there’s never been a precedent set for that.

Larry: Yeah, it’s kind of like if you're going to buy houses and seller finance them and then sell the note, you’re better off to lease-option them for the first year and then convert it to a note and sell it, right?

Carl: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that way you’d have a lease for the long-term and then do it. Not only that, I like that option either because if you sell the house with owner financing and they don’t pay then you have to foreclose, but if you're making the payments for a year, you can be a lot more safer or a lot safer giving them a note and a mortgage.

Larry: Right. Because if they’re going to default, most of the time, a lot of the times they’re going to default in the first year.

Carl: Right, and they’re going to be paying you their rent right.

Larry: Right, right. Man, Carl, this has been really, really good stuff. I don’t want to keep you too long. We’ve been on here about 32 minutes. So tell us some parting words of wisdom and how people could reach out to you because I’m telling you guys, listen to me. I have known Carl for years and years and years, okay? I’ve got multiple accounts with Carl. If you were going to have a retirement account, an IRA, an HSA, an ESA, self-employment plan or 401(k), a Safe Harbor 401(k), if you're going to have an ESA and HSA, you need to reach out to Carl and get one right away. Carl, you even offer training as well because you can’t make investment advice but you tell people and do podcast and webinars and share with people all the different things they can do with their retirement account as well, right?

Carl: Yeah. Now we want people to be educated so we put out a lot of educational webinars and series and bring people in that are doing things real-time so that they understand it and allow people to go do their due diligence. One of the things I really want people to do is do your due diligence on any investment before you make the investment. Not after it, not after they stop paying. That would be my number one word of wisdom that I would put in there.

The second thing, if people want to reach us, one of the best ways is to look at our website CamaPlan (C-A-M-A-P-L-A-N) .com and if they want to call us, they can call 877-55944-30. We’ll set up conference calls with your accountants and attorneys so that you can get all your questions answered on this because as you said at the beginning of the show, Larry, not many people know about it, not many people utilize it. Mitt Romney when he was running for president, you know, that was great when he released his tax return and it showed his hundred-million dollar IRA. We got a lot of publicity off of that and a lot of people came to us. Even though we didn’t keep his IRA with us. They looked at it and found out about it. And so we did a lot of education at that point in time.

Larry: Yeah, that’s how a lot of people mainstream found out about what’s called self-directed retirement accounts, right?

Carl: Yeah, yeah. They’ve been doing it for the very wealthy, you know, all the way back many years; the unions and things like that. But for the common man, it wasn’t really available. I mean, right now most of the brokerage houses will do it for people but you got to have 50 to 75 million dollars to get one of these accounts. And they’re more expensive with them than they are with us, so we kind of make this a low-cost available to everybody who wants to use their own knowledge and take control of their financial future investing in what they know and understand. So we’ll be glad to talk to anybody on this. Feel free to call our office.

Larry: There you go. That’s good. Carl, man I really, really appreciate you being on here today. It's been just a wealth of information, a wealth of knowledge and guys, listen, go to and call the toll-free number Carl gave you and set up a time. Carl, I’ve never ever, ever heard any custodian saying “We’ll get on the phone with your accountant, your CPA, your attorney and we’ll explain it to them.” I’ve never heard anybody even offer to do that, and that is huge. So I really appreciate you doing that.

Carl: Well, we want people to feel comfortable about it, you know. This was a company founded by investors for investors and you know, we're totally transparent. We want people to understand that. We want people to understand exactly what they’re getting into and, you know, I’m not doing it all out of the generosity of my heart because guess what, once I convince your attorney or your accountant that this is what it is, they send us business for other people that are looking for that after we’ve built a relationship and they feel good working with us.

Larry: That’s awesome.

Carl: Yeah, this is a way for me to get business and I appreciate you having me on today, and I love your show, and I love our mutual clients.

Larry: That’s awesome, man. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This has been really, really good and I really appreciate it. So guys, go over to and start opening up an account or reach out to them, give them a call and set up a time to get with them on the phone and open up an account. Whether you have kids or grandkids or you got a retirement account, you don’t have to move even the whole thing over. You could start out with moving a portion of an account and even if you have a 401(k) there’s what’s called an end service rollover or transfer, you may be able to even roll a portion of a 401(k) even if you still work with a company. Right, Carl?

Carl: Absolutely. And one of the other things, Larry, is I need to get you back on because we're redoing our webinars and our educational podcasts etc. so I would like to get you back on there and update it because the economy has changed somewhat in the past few years and I’d like to get your ideas and pass them on to our clients.

Larry: That sounds great, man. I’d love to do it. Looking forward to it. So you have fun out there fishing and just be thinking about me while you're out there reeling them in.

Carl: No, I know you’ll be there with me in spirit just like I was there for you in the 5k run.

Larry: I know, right? I ran three miles this morning.

Carl: Yeah. Tell Pam that I’ll bring her back some of that fish.

Larry: Alright. That sounds good, man. Well, she loved that fish but she’s allergic to it. That’s why you said that, right?

Carl: I know. That’s exactly right. I remember that. She looked like the Polka Dot Lady afterwards.

Larry: I know, right? We had a great time. Alright, Carl, man I really, really appreciate it.

Carl: Alright. Thank you very much, Larry.

Larry: Alright. Thanks a lot. You too.