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Value-Add Equity Deals and Hard Money Lending with Mike Zlotnik


In this episode, Larry talked to Mike Zlotnik of Tempo Funding. They discussed hard money lending and value add equity deals, among other things. Mike also discussed what value-add means and shared some ways one can increase the value of their properties.


  • Mike Zlotnik's background
  • His real estate investing experience
  • Income funds and growth and income funds
  • Examples of their deals
  • What value-add means
  • Ways to increase value
  • Doing a feasibility study
  • How the leverage works
  • A unique technique in renovating properties
  • Funding residential deals
  • Importance of building relationships
  • Challenging deals
  • What he looks for in a borrower
  • Diversification strategy


  • “If you can improve profitability through various techniques, you can increase the value.”
  • “If they like working with you, then it will work extremely well.”



Larry: Welcome to the Brain-Picker-Pro show live from Lake Wiley, South Carolina and all the way up in New York is my good friend; Mike Zlotnik. Mike, what's going on buddy?

Mike: Hey Larry. How are you? Great to be on your podcast.

Larry: I am doing good. Thanks a lot for being on today, I really appreciate you taking your time, I know you are very busy. You're out there rocking and rolling, making deals, reeling in deals all of the time and I really appreciate it. So, first of all, for those that may not have heard of you, I mean, I know you are out there man. You got a reputation. So, tell our listeners about; who is Mike Zladnik.

Mike: Thanks Larry, I appreciate your great introduction. I am known as "The Big Mike", "The Big Russian" I live in New York, I live in Brooklyn, there are a lot of Russians here. That's probably part of the problem… It's sort of a beauty and a curse. But I love real estate. I have been doing real estate full time since 2009 and part time since 2000. I did spend 15 years in software development before I got into real estate. I have a big family, I am married. I have four kids and a cat.

Larry: Four kids and a cat!

Mike: Four kids and a cat. I am becoming a cat person.

Larry: Man, better for you than me. Listen, we have two and I hate cats. I am actually allergic to them.

Mike: I am sorry to hear that. Well, let me put it this way, I thought I hated any kind of pets until my daughters rolled in with mice into the house and my wife said: "let's get a cat."

Larry: There you go! That's Funny. So, Mike, tell us a little about your real estate investing, I mean, I know you have done a lot of real estate, but you are primarily a lender now, right?

Mike: Yeah, I do a lot of hard money loans today and I have been doing it for a long time. I started my real estate investing in 2000. I bought apartments in Brooklyn, I bought houses in Brooklyn and for a number of years, I was passive until 2009 and then I became active. I started managing our hard money fund. We funded a lot of transactional funding deals, then we went into the extended kind of fix or flip projects and it is still our core business. We do hard money loans and fix and flip projects and fix and refile project. That is still more than half our business, but we do invest in also long-term equity deals, we participate in larger deals, multifamily value-add projects, we participate in self-storage, we have deals in conversions of old retail into self-storage, ground up construction self-storage, we have participation in retail value-add projects. A lot of people nowadays are scared of the retail industry, I am not. If you select a great location and you get a great deal and you have value-add, you could still do really well. So, we do both; we do hard money and we do value-add equity deals. That is sort of the core focus today.

Larry: That is awesome. So, you are.... I know you loan out your own money, you also have funds and stuff like that but you are doing, you said equity participation type deals, syndications on bigger deals, I didn't know really know you were doing that much of that.

Mike: Yeah, so, we do hard money. Today I co-manage a few funds; we have the income funds and the growth and income funds. The income funds are only hard money and we have growth and income funds. Our flagship fund called Temporal Opportunity Fund and that is both growth and income. So, on the income side, it is the hard money loans, we derive hard money loans. On the growth side, we participate in syndication deals. So, deals come through various sources. Many of these deals are collective efforts that we know. Other funds managers that participate in these deals. So we couldn't only invest just blindly ourselves, we invest with other fund managers we know pretty well, we do sort of.... they do their due diligence, we do additional diligence and then we participate and many of these deals, I will give you some examples, we have an investment into a value-add multi-family project in Chicago, the property was bought, 344 units and every unit is getting renovated the whole period of approximately two years. And then the rent go up and they reach about 16%. So, the opportunity is to find a property in the area that has rents and is a little bit run down and then you renovate the units and you build some common facilities like a clubhouse or a gym; a whole new experience and you can raise rents. So, ultimately, that project was bought for $45 million and two to three years later, it should be worth $65 million with no normal appreciation, it's all value appreciation because the income goes up and these projects bring in multiple income. Does that make sense?

Larry: Absolutely, it does. So, for the people who may not understand, explain what value-add means. You know, the forced appreciation.

Mike: Yeah, this is very simple. So, if you do value-add on a normal house, you're basically renovating the house and you are selling it retail. You're buying it wholesale, depress and then you fix it up and you resell. But on a commercial property, value-add means you are renovating in a more defined example, renovating the parts. You have an old apartment, and old kitchen, older appliances, apartment looks grave-y and no wonder its renting below the market. So, when you renovate the apartment, you can put a new kitchen, new floors, new cabinets, new appliances, you can increase the rent by, in that particular case, by 16%. So, 16% increase in the rent virtually goes to the bottom line and increases net operating income over property and commercial properties strain at the multiple of the income. Let's choose an example. Let's just say this property generates a million dollars in per income, when you increase the rent by 16% the nera per income doesn't increase by 16%, but it can increase by 60%, by 40%. So, instead of making a million dollars, now you are making four or five million. So the value of the property appreciates by that increase in nera per income. That is the basics of how it works in the commercial world when value-add happens. It's just done for the sake of spending money, its done for the sake of increasing nera per income, increasing cash flow and then you're improving the community too and you have, instead of a leased apartment complex, you have a new apartment complex with new apartments, new community facilities. It lifts the whole area. Does this make sense?

Larry: Absolutely, it does and there's multiple ways to do that, I know. Could you explain some of those ways other than just rehabilitating it and raising the rents?

Mike: Yeah, so, its varies depending on the type of assets. So, for multi-families, I will give you examples for self-storage. Self-storage is different beast. Self-storage, you could reconfigure the units, it merely has high demands for them, but then you can cut them into halves, you can administer the fees, you can do some culminary improvements, you can add some utility services. So, really, the sky is the limit. But as an entrepreneur, you are focusing at the end of the day, the profitability of the project. If you can improve profitability through various means, you can increase the value. On multi-family as I said, it's not just the unit rehabs, it's also changing overall experience; the image of the property, the common facilities, so that property is getting earnings in the laundry, earning of a clubhouse, and actually building a gym on the property. Yeah, all those things combine together, it feels and looks like a better property and the rents catch up. It might not happen overnight but over 2-3 year periods, you basically improve the property. And the secret source here is not to start with the heavy lifting of money. The secret is to start with the property, it has vacancy, you know, above the full occupancy, there is a room to go out. So you start with the occupants, say 82% and your target occupancy is ultimately in the nineties so you have little room to increase, but not only are you increasing occupancy, you are also increasing dollar per square foot. So those are the basic things. When you are looking for a project, you definitely don't want a fully performing, top of the line property because that's a retail price. What you are trying to get is a discount, so 75% is fine, maybe even to 85% as long as you have room to improve and as long as you are going to increase the rent. Those are the basic things you need to look at. And the demographics are improving too. The jobs are moving in the area. Then you have more potential of rent increase because the demographics are improving.

Larry: Right. And you do that through a feasibility study and.... Yeah. But the property you mentioned, once you get all that done, the property is humming, you've got your expenses under control, you have increased the rent and it's in good shape, then you can sell that property to like a hedge fund or something and then they're going to hold on long term. So, you ought to be selling that type of property not buying that type of property.

Mike: Exactly. So, the exit strategy with a lot of these properties; selling the improved property, fully performing to the lease. Self-storage is very difficult, there are big lease that come in and buy fully leased out properties. There is another instance today in the storage space property, there are actually a few couple places and I am just going to mention these;

One is with Amazon evening everybody's lounge and old Macy's, old Sears, old K-Marts, they're all struggling and some of these facilities are empty. You can come in and buy a great location real estate that's completely empty for a fraction of the price and convert to self-storage. We are participating in at least one project like that and it is exactly what you said about feasibility study. You have to do feasibility study in the area and see if that area supports additional self-storage units. If the feasibility study is strong, then you have very good potential to take that old retail price that's died because of Amazon and make it into a great self-storage facility. But we would want to be in that purchase to redevelopment to rehabilitation phase. Once its stabilized, we absolutely want to be at a point where we exit. We don't want to carry this thing at a retail price level. That's out play. That's the whole play, it's to value that component, just to get out. Reed's whole purpose is to yield They are okay with 4 or 5% yield, we're not. And that's how the play goes. For us it's good to get out and to get in.

Larry: Well, like you said, that 344 units in Illinois like you said; $46 million or something and the value-add is in the sixties. You know, that's $20 million dollars right there, boom! And which would probably take, I am guessing five to seven years.

Mike: Well, it would take less. What's funny there is.... So, that particular deal is an example. So, the law of leverage. Leverage could be a powerful tool. That particular deal was acquired with $33 million Freddy Mark Craig mortgage and that with the participation was only $12 million. So $12 million will earn $20 million over a period of approximately three years. It's not 12 going to 20, its 12 going into 32, earning $20 million on the upside. Why it happens is because the property is worth more money and the leverage helps. That's why the leverage works for you in a big way.

Larry: That is awesome!

Mike: And why three years? I'll tell you why three years. That particular property, the sponsor of that property has a unique.... I don't want to spend time on this, but I want to just mention it. I have never seen it before, but when I started for the first time, I was like wow, this is something I want to invest in. This guy has the technique how they renovate the units where live in. So, what they do is that when they approach tenants and they say "listen, you have a lease for another 9 months, what we want to do is have you live in a new unit with the same level of rent. All we have to do is have all your furniture moved in the middle, we are going to cover it all, then we are going to renovate the whole thing, you are going to stay in a hotel for a night, maybe two" because sometimes, they do it in a day. They run these renovations one, two or three days, a lot of people run through this, it's just remarkable. Yellow jackets moving, moving stuff, yellow jackets move out stuff, green jackets move things in, they do their stuff and go. Its big crews coming in and then they crank through the unit very efficiently and the tenant winds up with three days and they wind up owning or sort of living in a great environment. On renewal, the rent goes up.

Larry: And then they know that! They know that in advance and they are like "yeah, I want a new unit for the next 9 months without an increase in rent.

Mike: That's right. That's exactly…

Larry: I love it. So, Mike, you really kind of cut your teeth on residential stuff, I know as well that you still do a lot of residentials as well. Tell us about the type of residential deals that you do? That you fund.

Mike: We do a lot of hard money loans on turn key properties. A part of the turn key is these are some of the properties that typically are under the $100,000 value, maybe a little over $100,000, it depends. Some properties that we finance sell to investors, fully rehabilitated, out of town investors and sometimes foreign investors and we finance a lot of deals we do with CG guys and non-CG guys that we have been working with for a long time. So, they'll by a property for $40,000, they'll do $30,000 rehabilitation and they'll sell for $100,000. They will loan for $70,000 and sell for $100,000. So, they will rent for $10,000 per month. Again, I am just using this as an example. Rent is valued at 1% a month. In the smaller markets, rent values even better. So, if it sells for $80,000, the rent could be $900 a month. The smaller you get, the better the ratio. Well, finance typically on that deal will give the borrower a kind of 90% of their purchase, 90% of their rehabilitation. Some of the guys we have been working with, they have a strong track record, we give them 100%; we know them so well and they have not failed. It's pretty much.... they know what they're going to do, their per-square foot for rehab is very stable, very predictable, and then they turn in three to four months, pull next one, three to four months pull next one. So the turn key range is a great range, there is a lot of demand from investors for income property. They love these types of properties and the variance in them is very low. You are not going to have a $100,000 property selling for $80,000 or are you going to sell it for $120,000. It's going to be plus or minus 5%. The predictability of these deals is very high.

Larry: So, what kind of terms do you charge on a typical loan like that? Will you loan at 90% of the purchase and 90% of the rehabilitation once they have a track record that'd be 100% of each.

Mike: Yeah, so what we do is pretty much we go and negotiate with price. People say "Hey, this is competitive hard money to loan" So I do this in the relationship, I provide high value in service and we still charger what we charge in this even competitive markets. We generally charge 3.12% rates on deals sub-$100,000. You're going to ask me; "Hey, maybe, there is even cheaper money." The price sensitivity for cheaper money is much lower in that Dollar range because less money is available. All the big boys don't play in this space. All the big hard money lenders, they don't want to deal with properties below $100,000 loans. That's one, the second thing is the impact of an extra profit point or a point in a little bit more rate is relatively small because the loan amount is small. It is more important for our clients to get great service, get fast response on this first underwriting and then fast rehab disbursements. We disperse rehab funds very fast. So, the combination of those things make us attractive to the people we work with. We do have products, much more competitive products in price in the bigger markets. So if you come to me in need of a loan in New York or Los Angeles, we have very competitive sources of money. Where the rich are making themselves some solid paper to secondary markets or we have relationships with a lot of players who make those loans and those loans could go anywhere between one and half to two points. The rates could be nine and a half or even lower. Depending on the type of market or type of deal. So, we have access to cheap significant amount of money on bigger deals and we do them from time to time but we don't want to deploy our whole money, our whole funds to these types of deals because there is not enough for returning them. Does that make sense?

Larry: It absolutely makes sense, it really does. And I got to tell you, when you mentioned you go between 12 and 3, listen, that's very reasonable and nobody should complain about that. I mean, we charge 12 and 5. It used to be 15 and 5. Right?

Mike: Yes, it used to be. It has come down and we generally sort of bottomed out our prices we just don't want to do deal below that because there is not enough return. Yeah, there are some people who charge 2,3-5 points and when the relationship makes sense, if the deal is juicy enough, people shouldn't complain. If they like working with you then it works extremely well.

Larry: Absolutely. Absolutely. And like you said, there is something to be said about the relationship. That to me is just as important as getting the money; its having somebody you know and they can call you and say "Mike, I really need this, contractor's going out of town or I've got a closing tomorrow" or whatever, you know.... it is very important to build that relationship and you know Mike? I want to switch gears here for a minute; I have known you for a long time and you made it to CG a minute ago and a lot of people may not know that term, but that's Collective Genius. You and I are in the mastermind together and I think we've been in it about the same length of time. I have been in it for almost about six years now and I know you've been…

Mike: Yes, we are both the same, it's been a long time.

Larry: Yeah, and it's not a cheap mastermind, its $25,000 a year. Now, fortunately, you and I got in it before it was that expensive, right?

Mike: That's right. We got in when it was a little pricey.

Larry: Exactly, and as long as we stay in, right? But anyway, you've always been the guy that people will come to with "I am working on this complicated deal, I need help with how do I put this together, how do I make money on this deal...." I mean, I have even come to you with some loans I have made in Illinois, I remember us talking about one of those; "how do I resolve this problem." Because you are my go-to guy, you know? So, do you have a story or a deal that you put together that's like 'man, I never thought this deal would come together' or 'this is a very complicated deal' or 'I have turned lemons into lemonades' or something like that? Do you have one of those kind of deals?

Mike: Oh Larry, that's a great question. I have a number of very interesting deals.

Larry: I bet so!

Mike: Yeah, one comes to mind, I helped a client make only $650,000 that's all.

Larry: Only $630,000?!

Mike: $650,000 only. Well, it actually cost him around twenty-something dollars. So, I recollect a flip. A good friend, and he is a great friend I have been working with him for a long time and he is now an investor, he has given us a lot of money into our old funds and he invest into a number of our deals. Before he used to borrow money and now, he doesn't need the money anymore. he has made enough. So, he is a money investor now instead of a borrower. Here was the deal, he had a property in California on a short sale, he locked it in for slightly over $900,000. $930,000. He is in the Bay area, stuff being cheap there. So he had a short sale contract and the bank and the agent.... it is funny how the bank was so stupid, they would send the cheap DPO agent to appraise a million plus worth of property for $150,000 and then he came in from out of town and didn't know the market, appraised it and so he got an approval for $930,000 and so he would think he wasn't going to come close but they approved him for 930,000. So, to make long story short, he found a buyer who paid him $1.6 million and so it was over six hundred grand spread and the deal was falling apart with the investors in it. The reason for this is because the property was in a trust and some of the closing agents were freaking out about the trust. So, he calls me and he was on a cruise, he was boarding a cruise and he said: "Mike, my deal is falling apart and its 600k+, help him." I picked up the phone and I called a couple of good closers I have known for a long time.

The trust itself is not problematic. A lot of people have closed trust deals for a long time until there was some psychological fear and a number of closing agents started bugging out for whatever reasons. I picked up and I called one of our old standing relationships and she said send it over, I'll close the deal, I will charge a little more for the urgency and for the deal and she did. She charged two insurance policies and other things but on a grand scale of things, it was nothing. We funded the deal, we gave a bridged loan to close on the property and we did around 2% on two-point fee and he wound up with a net profit, I think it was between six hundred to six fifty thousand and if it was a couple of minutes later, he wouldn't even be able to communicate, the cruise was literally sailing away and he was able to get through and I helped to get that deal done. So, that wasn't any fancy engineering, but it was more of a coordination; helping him coordinate a deal that was at risk. And I do it from time to time. I talk to you, I talk to a number of CG masterminds and non-CG guys and I try to provide a kind of good feedback. I should be charging for this but…

Larry: You should be. You just said "I'll work this out for another 2 points. That's good. So, as a hard money lender, underwriter, someone who takes other people's money. Now, we used to do that, we don't do that anymore. But, I know you do that. You have a couple of funds and like the syndication equity funds and you also have short term and long term residential deals you do. As somebody who underwrites and actually is investing other people's money, what do you look for in a borrower? What is more important? The deal or the borrower or the credit of the borrowers' experience? Beause, listen, Mike you invested a lot of money for a lot of people so you have to make sure that not only do they return but job number one is that they don't lose money. Right?

Mike: Right.

Larry: What do you look for in a borrower that you invest in their money for a deal?

Mike: Larry, that's a great question. So, we start typically.... and again, the way the funds work, let me say a couple of words; we have many investors and we invest into many deals. It is a many to many, we run 506 ripe defunds and many investors basically, they trust their money with us, we have a responsibility to deploy the money on deals and on the underwriting side, we start over with the borrower. Its requirements are, number one, we get called and I ask people; where did you get my phone number, where did you get my email, how did you find out about us? And they say "Well, I found you on the American Association of Landers and site" That's not a good referral. We are listed, we are members of the APL. But I am looking for a warm, strong referral so I could say thank you, we could take a look at the deal, he numbers but in general, if there is no strong referral, we won't take the deal. That is the number one requirement.

So, what does that mean? It means a CG guy who knows another rehabilitator who has been working with them for a long time who has strong relationships. They can say "I have done forty deals with this guy, he needs some money, can you help?" That's a good referral. So we are looking for these kinds of relationships. That is a step number one. We can do a quick background or credit check but a strong word of mouth from somebody who we know helps a long way.

Step number two, we are looking at typically the deal itself. So we are looking at the multi value ratio. We are looking at the likely resale price. What are the risks associated with the property? Is it a high-end, low-end? What is the utility? Scope of the rehabilitation. Pardon me, a big ass rehab is a lot of risk involved with this type of work. I mean there are projects that are one long steep hill and you have to build foundations and a lot of stuff associated with that and if you are dealing with that type of project, it's a lot of risks. Carpet and paint, easy! Walk in the park. So, when we look at the low to value and we look at the scope and complexity of the rehabilitation and we are looking at the very likely ability to sell, so it is a very specific underwriting and if we like that, at that point, we will start figuring out contingencies. Are they going to sell in four months? What happens if they don't? If the deal looks good, then we talk about price. Some people call me up and ask "what do you charge?" I charge a million dollars before we start the conversation. That's it. Want to talk to me? Table a million dollars. I mean, seriously! But if you have a good referral, we'll talk to you, we will work with you. We do want more business, but we want quality business and I'd rather do more deals with the same people and maintain good services than taking ones utilities. Then if someone is listening and they don't have a strong referral, I'd appreciate you not calling.

Larry: Man, I love it! I love it! That is great. You know, I love to get the calls where people are like; "hey I found you on this list" or whatever or "I did a Google search and I found you and first of all, what is your price? And I need to close tomorrow because three other lenders turned me down"

Mike: Yeah, I get a lot of those calls "I close in two days" Yeah, you have waited so long, and you’re such a brilliant person to wait until the last minute. I can't help you, I am sorry. I can't do fast, I can do slow. I can do good service, but I can't do.... We respond to repeat clients on many deals on short notice and "I've got to close in three days" and I will help you and that's how it really should be. So, if I don't know who you are and you want a three-day closing, call somebody else please.

Larry: Yeah, exactly, exactly. You've built your business based on that philosophy and you know, the thing I have learned in the past is that the person who needs the money the fastest, they are also going to nickel and dime you over the rates and they are also the least qualified borrowers and also, they have a deal that probably doesn't even make sense. Right?

Mike: Yeah, people bring deals in timely manner. We have access to incredibly competitive money, if they have big deals and are very price sensitive and there are people who are very price-sensitive. I have had those borrowers and they are great borrowers. We'll get them the greatest rates we can, but it is a very competitive rate. But people come in last minute, something is wrong with the deal. That is 90% chance there is. It is either he deal is wrong, they're wrong, something is wrong. Just got to go find it. That is why I don't always try on the three-day funny request unless they're coming from somebody who I know and at least I have the track record that I work with the person in the past.

Larry: Exactly! And you know what Mike, that's one of the things I have always admired about you is you don't have to put a deal together that actually makes money, right? You are going to make money for the borrower and for your investors as well and it is as if you are investing your own money, you know, so you are making money for everybody involved and if you turned down the deal, it's because it's not the money maker or it's because it's not the right borrower or the right property for them. But when you do a deal, you are very conservative, very cautious, but you can do deals for the ide right borrower and the right property.

Mike: Yeah, so, part of the basis is the diversification play. So, the fund manager on one hand, we have underwriting processes and we have a chief underwriter who underwrites all the deals so at this point, he has been on it, he is a very experienced guy who runs all our underwriting. But on the fund-management side, my job is to diversify and bad deals always happen. From time to time, some will go wrong, even with a good person or a good deal, something will inevitably happen. So, diversification strategy is what mitigates the risks. No matter what, if you have a hundred files, a couple of them go bad, no big deal. So, that is as simple as that. That is why we like a lot of small deals and from out perspective, we like and average deal of 100k, 70k, perfectly happy.

But on the fund level, it's pretty basic stuff; we try to limit the biggest deal, we diversify as much as we can, we diversify between types of borrowers, location and loan areas and on the equity side, the same thing. We diversify as much as we can. We do a lot of deals on the equity with short trust to start with. So we put a little more money into that and where there are plenty of ground up type of deals, we put less money there. So, ultimately, I can't find a better word as the word diversification. You know, I have this book out, let me show you the book. Here is the book, right there and it's called How to Choose A Smart Real Estate Investment Fund. I wrote this whole book about investing in a fund and asking the right questions and analyzing individual funds that invest in this type of deals. So, I am not parading the book, I am just that a lot has gone into the process of fund management and underwritings.

Larry: Exactly, that's awesome and you're really good at it. I have got a copy of it somewhere here in my library. I couldn't get my hands on it right this second but I have got a copy of it as well. It is some great information, it really is. And one thing I do know is that you know how to put together some money making deals. That's for sure.

Yes, I appreciate the kind words. I am happy to... by the way, the book is available for free. If you would like to download it over at Amazon you could just go to and search for Mike Zlotnik. Type in How to Choose A Smart Real Estate Investment Fund and it is available for free in Kindle and if you want a hard copy, you just got to pay for shipping.

Larry: That's awesome! It is awesome. And it's got a lot of really good information in there about return on investments, taxation, liquidity, fund feasts and management experiences and deal flow. It's got a lot of good information in there.

Mike: Yes, it's the due diligence for somebody to invest into a fund. I have put together this list, sitting in a conference a little over a year ago and listening to many fund manager pitches and individual deal pitches and as I was listening through, I was thinking through the diligence process; how would I select? How would I go through my own thoughts processing those? And I put together a short book. This book, as you know is put together working with Corey Baldrige and it is put together as an interview. We'd only transcribed the call and then the book, a little transcription of the call, so....

Larry: That's great, that's really good! Yeah guys, run over to Amazon and grab a copy of it. Like Mike said, it’s free, right?

Mike: Yes, it's free and on Kindle.

Larry: On Kindle! Wow, that's awesome. That's awesome. Mike Zlotnik Z-L-O-T-N-I-K. How to Choose A Smart Real Estate Investment Fund. So, Mike, man I really appreciate you being home today. If somebody wanted to reach out to you to learn more about everything that you do and opportunities working with you, how would somebody reach you?

Mike: Sure, our primary website is: Another way to reach me is to remember: This is podcast that I run and it's called: Big mike fund. When you type that, it takes you to the same website; but a podcast page. That's the ways to reach me.

Larry: You do a podcast as well and guys be sure to listen to his podcasts, it's all about real estate and he interviews other people as well, it is similar to what we do. So, yeah Mike I really, really appreciate you being home today, I really appreciate you sharing all these great information, it's awesome information, you're really good at what you do and I can see now why you are so successful.

Mike: Larry, I appreciate you having me, I am very grateful and we just recorded another episode with you being on the podcast, on my podcast. It's coming out a little bit later, thank you for coming on my podcast as well.

Larry: That's awesome. And thank you so much for being on the Brain-Picker-Pro show, I really appreciate it. Thanks a lot Mike!

Mike: Thank you Larry.