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Models and Marketing with Joe McCall


In this episode, Larry invited a longtime friend, fellow mentor, coach, and real estate guru. Joe McCall is a successful investor who invests while traveling the world with his family. Joe has flipped over 100 deals and has helped students flip hundreds more. He loves doing deals and coaching students to do the same.


  • Who Joe is
  • On making offers
  • Getting on the phone
  • What to do if you're not good on the phone
  • What Larry and Joe look for when hiring people
  • What his business looks like right now
  • Good lists to call
  • How MojoSells works
  • Land flipping
  • Spending money on a course
  • Giving some courses to his assistants
  • His advice to people who are just getting started in the business
  • His book


  • "Stop asking 'what if' and start asking 'what next'."
  • "Start making offers."
  • "Focus on what makes you rich. Shiny objects will make you go blind."
  • "There's a pig for every barn."
  • "It's important that you have a skin in the game."
  • "Pick a strategy and focus on it like a laser beam. Ignore everything else. Just focus on that one strategy and master it."
  • "Keep it simple, build a system around that then scale it."



Larry: Welcome to the Brain Pick-A-Pro show live from Lake Wylie, South Carolina. I’m Larry Goins and all the way over in St. Louis is my good friend, long-time friend, fellow mentor and coach and real estate guru, the man, the myth and the legend, Joe McCall. What’s up buddy?

Joe: Hey, Larry Goins. Good to see you. It’s been a little while. I just interviewed you on my podcast and I love interviewing you on my show because you give so much really good information and it’s an honor to be in yours.

Larry: Awesome man. Well, it’s gonna be the same on this one because you are just a wealth of knowledge and information and you got so much going on and you always have time to go on vacation as much as you get done, so I’m really, really excited to be interviewing you.

Joe: Oh, thanks man. Good. I’m looking forward to it.

Larry: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So, Joe, tell our listeners and viewers a little bit about yourself.

Joe: Well, okay cool. My name is Joe and I started getting into real estate in 2006-2007. Read some good books. I was broke… as an engineer I was making good money but I was spending it all, right?

Larry: Right.

Joe: Doesn’t matter if you got a college degree and you are making 75 grand a year, there’s more stress that comes with that, you know.

Larry: Right.

Joe: So, but anyway, I was getting really interested in real estate. I was starting to buy a lot of books, starting to go to bootcamps, workshops. I was trying to buy a lot of courses. I would go to eBay and buy tons of courses on eBay and I became an information junkie. I was in this phase Larry where I was getting paralyzed, over analyzing everything and not taking any action. So, I decided to go spend a dollar in coaching. And the coaching was good. They gave me really good information. My wife was behind me 100%. But Larry, I did not implement anything, right? How much money are you gonna make if you don’t implement what you learn? So, I waste it literally. Maybe you wouldn’t call it waste ‘cause I learned a lot of good things but like, you know, I was so discouraged because I didn’t do anything that they told me to do. And I remember at that time thinking, oh man this is like, this is so elementary. This is so basic and simple. I am smarter than that. I am college educated. You know, I’m kinda so arrogant. Like I thought I knew better. I never done a deal before. I didn’t like what they were telling me to do because it sounded too simple. I was more professional, so you know they are telling me to contact landlords on Craigslist, to send postcards to landlords or to go network with realtors and make offers on the MLS. So anyway, fast forward then a couple three years, market crashes, I already bought some properties with bank financing, but my back was against the wall, I was hemorrhaging cash. I had a lot of vacancies. I was way over my eyeballs of debt, bank loans, private loans, subject-to’s and I was in a world of hurt and so what was the real turning point for me Larry was like I had to make a decision, am I gonna continue working my engineering job or am I gonna do real estate.

Larry: Right.

Joe: I got to choose one or the other.

Larry: Right.

Joe: And so I chose real estate. But then I knew, man, I got to decide, if I’m looking to real estate, there is always different strategies out there. I was looking in short sales, and lease options and wholesaling and fix and flip and subject-to’s and I said I gotta just pick one strategy and go for it. So, I said all right I’m gonna buy one more course and I bought a course on wholesaling and I said I’m gonna do what this guy says to do whether I like it or not. I’m not gonna question anything. I’m not gonna change anything. I remember so clearly, reading this course, I was sitting on the driveway, my kids were riding bicycles around the cul-de-sac and this was at a house that we eventually lost short so because I was just hemorrhaging cash so bad. I knew I had to make a change, my back is against the wall. I said I’m just gonna do what this guy says. I didn’t like his postcards, I thought they were ugly and unprofessional. I didn’t like his scripts. I didn’t like his contracts. It was only one page. I thought you had to have 20-page contract to be legit.

Larry: Right.

Joe: And I said I’m just gonna do what he says to do. Not so sure enough, I sent his postcards, I used his scripts, I made his offers, used his contracts and I did a deal Larry. The seller practically… it wasn’t because I was super smart because like she practically begged me to buy her house. And it was in an area that I’ve never been to before. It was way out in the sticks. I had no buyers. It is too hard to find comps. It was a 3 family out in the sticks in a country. And I can see that it has expired the year before for 140 something thousand dollars. I just said, I’ll offer you 50. She said “okay, great.” I was so scared she was elderly, so I made sure that her son was with her.

Larry: Right.

Joe: And I met her at a local YMCA. I got the contract signed. I dusted off every course that I could find. Yours is probably one of them. I looked at all of the different clauses and contingencies that I can put into the contract Larry and I said all right. So, I had so many contingencies in there. I’m sure they are like contradicted each other Larry. It is so bad. And then I gave it to her. I was so nervous and she signed it without even reading it. I spent so much time looking at that contract and understanding every single thing about there in case she has a question about it.

Larry: And she didn’t even read it.

Joe: She didn’t even read it. Her son didn’t read it. It’s like, oh my gosh. So then Larry, she signs it for 50 and then I’m freaking out. Like what do I do now? So, I remember somebody saying put the sign in the area, put a sign in the area. I think I even paid a flat fee of listing agent to do a flat fee listing on it. And then I started getting calls. I advertised it for 65. I started getting calls and then the first guy that called me was a realtor and then I’m, oh no, it is a realtor. What am I supposed to do now? And the guy says, I have a guy who is interested. I said, oh, well I gotta tell you something, I don’t own this house. Like I’m a wholesaler and I have it under contract, but I have not bought it yet. I hope that’s okay and the realtor says, “relax it’s all right you know.” So, okay, I don’t even have a title company like this is way out and he says, “That’s all right, we will just use my buyer’s title company, no big deal.” I said, well how am I gonna pay you the commission? He said, “don’t worry about it. My buyer will pay the commissions.” I said, is it okay? And he says, “yeah, don’t worry.” Like Larry I have been studying this stuff for five years, right? And I’m so nervous, so stupid. But anyway the guy says don’t worry about it. So I said, well give me the name and number of the title company, I need to call them. He says, “okay.” So I called the title company and I said, listen, I got this under contract for 50, I’m selling it to this guy for 65, but I don’t own it, you know, like I’m just wholesaling it, I don’t know the right way to do this. I don’t have the money to buy it. Do I have to do double closing assignment? What are my contracts? What kind of paperwork do I need to use? And they said, “calm down, it’s okay.” So, anyway at the end of the day like a week after I actually closed on it. I mean actually I got it under contract. This guy bought it for cash at this traditional title company with a traditional realtor, traditional… and I made $13,000 after all my closing cost. And you know everyone is happy. The seller was happy, the buyer was happy, I was happy, but now Larry you know I was that guy with the check.

Larry: Right.

Joe: Like I have been to all the bootcamps, I’ve seen the gurus up there with the checks on for testimonials and I just remember thinking that’s BS. That’s no way. And then thinking I wanna be one of those guys. And all of a sudden, I can’t believe it. This actually works. I was so excited. I had a check and I didn’t even make a copy of it. I’m so mad at myself even today. I didn’t get a copy of that check, but like all of a sudden I was like, wow this works. I believe it works and I remember looking back thinking why didn’t I do this when I gotten into that coaching program? Why didn’t I just do what the guy said to do? So anyway, from then on, man, it is just like was like a benchie, whatever that means. Like I started sending out tons of postcards, tons of marketing, started doing deals, then that kind of, maybe I can talk about this later but I started doing lease options then because I got tired of throwing away so many leads that didn’t have any equity. But I quit my job in about a year later, 2009 when the market was falling apart and never looked back. That really evolved in something in me and burned it into head like until when I stopped over analyzing things and just started taking massive actions, stopped asking what if and started just asking what next and it got over my fear of making mistakes that I actually started working. Does that make sense?

Larry: It absolutely make sense. There are so many people out there that get what we called paralysis of analysis, right?

Joe: Yup.

Larry: But it’s like I tell people, you know, if you made no offers last month, you had zero chance of buying a house, right?

Joe: Mm-hmm. Yup.

Larry: You had zero chance of making any money in real estate if you made no offers last month, right?

Joe: Yeah.

Larry: So you gotta get out there and you gotta, you know, I tell people this training and I see your bookcases in the background, but here’s one of mine, here’s one of mine.

Joe: Your force is down there.

Larry: And here is on the other side, right? There’s my whiteboard. You see my whiteboard?

Joe: One of your grandkids.

Larry: Yeah.

Joe: That’s awesome.

Larry: But you know I tell people this stuff is self-help not shelf help. You gotta get it off the shelf.

Joe: That is good. Can I write that down? This is self-help not shelf-help.

Larry: Right. Right. You said one a minute ago that I needed to write down and I forgot what it was. But it was good. I should have wrote it down when you said it a minute ago.

Joe: Somebody listening to this will remember.

Larry: Yeah. Yeah. It was good.

Joe: But, yeah, you know, Larry I bought your course, you know, I don’t remember when but I remember watching your webinars thinking, oh, if I could just be one of those guys on that webinar with those checks, you know. And I used to think it was BS. At the same time I thought it was BS, I wanted to be one of them.

Larry: Right.

Joe: But I am just so relieved when I finally figured it out. Like what this guy said to do works? You know, maybe it is just because I was so skeptical believing that all of it is just some fairytale-infomercial-fake-stuff.

Larry: Right.

Joe: If it sounds too good to be true, it must be. Dad gum it. You know, if it didn’t happen… at the time when everybody was running to the hills. Like everybody was fleeing the market because everything is falling apart and you know Lehman Brothers is out of business and no banks are giving mortgages anymore. But I just refused to take no for an answer and implement it. So, if anybody is listening to this, if you want some advice from me, stop studying and start taking action like your speed to income Larry, you know this, your speed to income is directly proportional to the number of offers that you make. If you wanna start doing deals, guess what, there is no shortcuts, start making offers, baby, start making offers. How do you make offers? Well, you start talking to sellers.

Larry: You gonna make the phone ring. Yeah.

Joe: You start doing marketing. You start making the outbound calls. You start doing the stuff. It is not complicated. Stop complicating it, I tell people all the time. Just get out there and make 5 offers a day. I don’t care how you do it. If it is just like handwriting an offer, on a letter, and dropping it up at the seller’s door. If it is cold calling, 5 or 10 Craigslist ads, cold column. Whatever you got to do, get on the phone, don’t treat it like a cactus. I mean you are gonna make millions of dollars if you learn how to get good on the phone. So, start making offers.

Larry: That’s a great, great point. I tell people Joe in today’s market where you know, I mean years ago we could do nothing but HUD, nothing but MLS, right? But now you… I mean yeah, we still buy HUD houses, we still buy houses up the MLS, but to get our volume up, right? We are doing direct mail. And when you do direct mail or pay-per-click or Craigslist or whatever, you know, being a successful real estate investor is not much more than being a glorified telemarketer, right? You are on the phone, you know, sell on the seller. That’s what you are doing, right?

Joe: You got to get over that fear of the phone.

Larry: Right.

Joe: Sales is a million-dollar skill, right? And there is so much that you can do like you know you can still do deals by without ever talking to sellers, right? But like if you are not gonna do it, you gotta get somebody else that will.

Larry: Right.

Joe: And where we are doing most of our deals right now Larry is with cold calling, outbound cold calling. We are getting list in markets where there is a lot of turnkey activity, a lot of landlords coming in and buying rental properties, and we are mailing list, we are skip tracing them, getting phone numbers and we have a VA (virtual assistant) in the Philippines, 7 or 8 bucks an hour, that’s cold calling these landlords and saying, “Hey, we are looking for, are you Mark? Are you the guy who owns 123 Main Street? We’d like to make an offer in your house, would you be interested in selling it?” And we are getting on the phone. We are getting on the phone and talking to people. Most of them only 10% to 15% of our deals are coming from that first phone call. 85% to 90% of our deals are coming after the fourth or fifth touch, so it is a lot of followup, a lot of back and forth phone calls but we are not doing it. We got virtual assistants, we got local wholesalers that are doing it, but you know, the point is get on the phone, stop treating it like a cactus. It is hard. I mean every day it is gonna be hard. But once you make that first phone call, it becomes easier, you get better, you start practicing and then the more leads you have coming in, the less desperate you are gonna sound, the more confident you are gonna be and then you start getting sellers to sell you on their home, and you become, you got to be careful with being the motivated buyer, right?

Larry: Right.

Joe: You wanna be the reluctant buyer. So, you are one of the best at that Larry. You are one of the best guys I’ve ever heard on the phone.

Larry: Well, thanks. I really appreciate you saying that, but you hit the nail on the head. You know, you wanna be the reluctant buyer, you know, if somebody calls up, I mean I may know it is a 2-bedroom, 1-bath house and I’m gonna say, oh so how many bedrooms you have 3? “No, it’s 2.”Ohh, only 2.

Joe: This is so good. Well, you are doing this on my podcast. I wanna pick your brain, Larry. This is so good. Talking about how you talk to sellers. You are way better than I am.

Larry: It’s a lot of fun, man. I love it. But the key here, you know, the key Joe I think you know this is just get the people to like you and trust you and find some common ground. All we are really trying to do is solve a problem. In fact, the first 5 minutes in the call, I don’t even talk about the house. One of the first questions I ask and I’m sure you do to is something along the lines of what’s going on in your life right now where you need to sell a property?

Joe: What’s your situation?

Larry: Right, right. What’s your situation? And it didn’t mean if they are married or not, right? What’s your status?

Joe: Or you’ll just like what would you like to see happen with this house?

Larry: Exactly.

Joe: You are more concerned with their story than the house. Like, I don’t care about the property. I love the way you do it though. Like you know it is a duplex or what’s the better example? You know, a back to railroad trucks but you might ask him a question, what’s your backyard like?

Larry: Yeah, yeah. Do you have a big backyard? Oh, Oh.

Joe: You know it is a small backyard.

Larry: You do have a garage don’t you? No? Hhmm, let me make a note of that.

Joe: But you are doing it without being a jerk. You are being nice. You know, what’s the funny thing too Larry, you guys down south and I’m telling you I had some friends that heard one of my podcast talking about and they are from San Diego. They were in our Mastermind, I don’t remember their names, but they heard me talking about

Larry: Right.

Joe: They are from San Diego. They actually hired some lady from the south. They intentionally looked for some lady in the south who had some sweet southern charm accent.

Larry: Right.

Joe: Who called people sweetie and honey and they had her answer the phone. And fast forward 5 years later, this lady, she is a stay-at-home mom, right? She is doing multiple 6 figures a year now and she is the main acquisitions manager for this investment company in San Diego. People down there love talking to her, you know.

Larry: I believe that.

Joe: They love her voice. She is nice, you know, she’s got that sweet southern charm. The deals we are doing right now in Alabama and Mississippi. We have a local wholesaler we are working with, she is a lady and she is from the south and she could turn on that southern accent, you know, depending on who she is talking to.

Larry: Right.

Joe: She can soften that angry seller just like that. It is amazing. And then she throws them off guard and she is really, really good. That’s the point. That’s the thing. You know, like, if you are not good on the phone like that, maybe you know you could practice to get better at it or you could find somebody else who is and hire them or partner with them because there are people out there that are really good on the phone. Does that make sense?

Larry: Absolutely, it makes sense. In fact, when we are hiring people, number one, I look for sales skills first. Communication and sales and negotiating skills and number two, real estate skills, right?

Joe: Way more important.

Larry: You can teach anybody real estate skills, but the big skill is being able to communicate and negotiate and disarm people and get them to like you and trust you and because, you know, I mean think about it, if they think their houses worth $100,000 and I’m gonna be offering them $25,000, you got to be able to diffuse that. You’ve got to be able to put it out there in a way, you can’t say, you know, based on what I am seeing, your house is not worth the $25,000. You can’t do that, right?

Joe: Mm-hmm.

Larry: You’ve got to be nice about it, smooth about it. You gotta ease them into it. You know, you gotta, you know, wow, let me see, I’m pulling up some comps here. Hmm, well, I don’t know could this be a mistake? This is a house sold 2 houses down for $25,000. Man, is that right? Wait a minute, here’s one sold for $32,000. Man, here is another one, 125 Oak Street is sold for $18,000. Wow! And how did you say you came up with your number? You know, I mean you got to ease into it. You know what I mean?

Joe: That’s so good. The last person I would hire would be a used car salesman. They maybe good at doing the high pressure thing, but I am more concerned because getting somebody who is nice and is friendly, right? Like I’ve hired two acquisition managers, and both of them, it wasn’t intentional and I didn’t even realize this until a couple of years later.

Larry: Uh-huh.

Joe: Both of them were former pastors.

Larry: Really?

Joe: Actually, one was a former pastor, one was a part-time pastor.

Larry: Uh-huh.

Joe: The first guy, he just retired, you know, nothing bad happened. He just wanted to do something else and he had a lot of free time on his hands, I said, “Hey, maybe you can be my acquisitions guy.” He said, “Great.” And I paid him 100% commissions and we did a lot of deals together. Fast forward a few years, I’m looking to hire somebody else. This guy contacts me, he is a part-time pastor, he works at Home Depot for 8 bucks an hour.

Larry: Wow!

Joe: And he was super persistent but he was over the top and pushy, immediately I knew that he was really good on the phone. He was nice. Just a nice guy.

Larry: Right, right.

Joe: But he was also persistent. I thought this was really good. I like him and the other thing is Larry, of all the people that applied, he answered his phone.

Larry: Yeah.

Joe: Like he was accessible. He wasn’t afraid of that phone. He answered it.

Larry: Right, right.

Joe: So, I hired him. His wife would only let him come work with me if I replaced his $8 an hour Home Depot salary, so I paid him 8 bucks an hour salary and then I think 10% to 15% commission on the deals.

Larry: Right.

Joe: We had a little hurdle. He was too nice like he was happy to make 2 or 3 grand on the deals. Like, “Joe, this is the most money I’ve ever made in my life, like 2 grand for doing nothing.” I said, okay, that’s awesome. Congratulations. But we need to do more. We need to shoot higher from that, right?

Larry: You got to step it up.

Joe: He is like, “Ohh.” So, he reluctantly, I finally got him up to… I kept on telling him we need to shoot for 5,000 and then after he got comfortable with that. All right we need to shoot for 10,000 and finally he was comfortable with that. And we stopped working together. It is a long story, but like when he was here, our average profit was about 7 or 8 grand per deal and we were doing 3 or 4 a week. And it was just amazing. Short story long, we had to part ways because we had a really good buyer and he started working with the buyer and not with me, so I could wholesale my deals to him. Anyway, but there is some to be said with you know getting the people skills are more important than the technical skills, right?

Larry: That’s so true. That is so true. Joe, you mentioned you are doing stuff in Alabama and some other areas as well, tell us a little bit about what your business looks like right now and what you are doing, ‘cause man, you are always thinking out of the box, right? You are thinking about of the box but you know I mean you and I are in two different Masterminds together and you are always thinking, always growing, always learning, and looking at what other people are doing, and tweaking it, and creating your own processes and procedures. So, share with our viewers what you are doing now.

Joe: I tell you one of the best things about being and doing podcast, coaching students Larry is I learn more things from my students.

Larry: Yeah.

Joe: That I do from any courses that I buy.

Larry: Right.

Joe: I’m always learning from my students, what works, what doesn’t, just for example the other day I’ve been sending out text messages for years to Craigslist, landlords, for rental ads in Fishbowl ads, right?

Larry: Right.

Joe: I sent out text message and I call the ones who raised their hands and see I’m interested. I’ve never ever thought about calling the ones who didn’t respond to my text messages. One of my students says the other day, man, I’m getting all these great deals from people that aren’t even responding to the text messages. I’m just calling them. I started thinking about it, holy smokes, that’s brilliant because a lot of those landlords who put their numbers that aren’t responding in my text, those phone numbers are maybe landlines and maybe they are old school, they are some mom and pop investor who puts a landline on their rental ad, they are never gonna get my text, nobody else is texting them. Why not call them and holy smokes sure enough, you know what, calling them works. Those are the guys that you talk to and they maybe don’t wanna sell that property but they’ve got some other ones they could sell.

Larry: Right.

Joe: So, anyway, I’ve always loved virtual wholesaling, right? And doing deals virtually in other markets because I’ve travelled to Europe for months at a time or traveling in our RV and stuff, but I was talking to some students and he was actually a realtor and he was telling me, man, I am having some pretty good success with this auto dialing stuff. I was like, realtors have been doing that for long time, they cold call with auto dialer, expired, for sale by owners, you know. He said, “that’s interesting.” You know, I wonder if you could call absentee owners. Instead of mailing them, what if we could call them? And then I started networking with some Masterminds and finding the other guys that we are doing this in really competitive markets, and that was just cool. So, I started doing it. I started testing it.

Larry: Right.

Joe: And I started talking to some students that we are doing it and so we said let’s try it and one of our students that was doing a lot of deals, she was getting frustrated because she was doing deals, but she couldn’t handle all of the marketing and the talking to sellers and making the offers and following up. So we said to her, listen what if we just did the marketing for you, we will pre-screen the leads for you and we will give them to you and you work them and we will split the deals. She said, “great”. So, we’ve probably done about 35 deals with her in the last 5 months, Larry. And this quarter, I mean this month right now we’ve got about $100,000 in profits in under contract right now.

Larry: Awesome.

Joe: Don’t know if we are going to sell all those deals, but like it is insane. So, what we are doing is straight up cold calling. We are getting list of absentee owners with equity in targeted zip codes where we know our buyers are buying, right? We know there is a high demand for housing there. We are getting list of absentee owners with that ‘cause all of the sellers out there the most likely group to be motivated are absentee owners, they are landlords, right?

Larry: Right.

Joe: So, we skipped trace, we will get a list of maybe a thousand or two thousand addresses and names, we will skip trace them, get the phone numbers, and we will get a VA (virtual assistant) from the Philippines at 8 bucks an hour that will go in and just start cold calling through our auto dialer, we have an auto dialer we use. We use Mojo sales. The VA has a very simple script, ask some 4 or 5 questions, doesn’t try to make an offer, doesn’t try to figure out where they are at, she just wants to find out if they have a house to sell because if they are landlord and they have a house they wanna sell, that’s a great lead. So, we put it into our CRM which is Podio then the local wholesaler, Melissa is her name, gets on the phone and she calls them and she is really, really good with followup. She is good on the phone and so we’ve just been partnering with her, doing these deals and she used to go see the houses. Now she doesn’t. She got somebody that she pays 35 to 50 bucks to go take pictures. So, she’ll send them to go take pictures. Sometimes she’ll send them to get the contract signed, sometimes she will get the contract signed electronically. But now even in her backyard, she is not even going to see the house.

Larry: I love it man. I love it.

Joe: Yeah. It’s crazy easy. And Larry one more thing, most investors right now, they’re doing a lot of direct mail. They are spending anywhere from $2,000 to $5,000 in marketing per deal. Now, they are still making 10 to 20 grand per deal but that’s a lot of money to spend on marketing, right?

Larry: Right, right.

Joe: We are spending less than $500 in marketing per deal right now with this cold calling set up.

Larry: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And who did you say you are calling on this list?

Joe: We are calling absentee owners with equity.

Larry: Okay. That’s awesome. That’s really, really good. I love it. And plus you can call the Craigslist ads.

Joe: Yes, that’s another great list.

Larry: Craigslist people and the turn key, buyer list as well.

Joe: There’s three great lists of call. Number one is always your followup list, old leads, right? Old leads always number one. Number two, I like to call absentee owners with equity. These are sellers or landlords that bought their houses in like target zip codes at least 5 years ago and there is list that we can pull that have lots of equity.

Larry: Right.

Joe: The third would be, ‘cause I’ve been scraping Craigslist and Zillow for years. So, I have literally tens of thousands of phone numbers of landlords, investors, and property managers and realtors that have been advertising rental properties in my markets, so that’s a great list to just cold call and the way this cold calling works is it dials three phone numbers at a time. When somebody answers, it stops dialing the rest. And you just have a VA that does this. She only works 20 hours a week. We don’t make her work anymore than that. There is an efficiency curve. So, she makes calls for 2 or 3 hours a day and then after she calls everybody, she goes back through it and calls everybody again. So about every 30 days she is calling everybody in that list at least once.

Larry: That’s cool. Now, tell everybody how Mojo Sales work. We actually just signed up for Mojo. I’ve got a list. I’ve got my direct mail list. I’ve had it appended and I’ve got all my old leads, but I haven’t even started using it yet, but I’m kinda familiar with it, but tell everybody watching a little bit about Mojo Sales and how it works and it could dial multiple people at once and all that.

Joe: Well, you just gave me a layup.

Larry: Oh, okay.

Joe: Well, we are releasing this week a new course on all of these. It is called If anybody wants, go check that out,

Larry: Sweet.

Joe: We actually teach it and it is simple, there is 4 little modules, each of them are about 30 minutes long, 30 to 60 minutes long. It teaches you exactly what we are doing. So, the Mojo is really simple. They have some really good tutorial videos on their website that walkthrough how to set it up, so we’ve found it works best is to use somebody either local or virtual, but no more than a couple of 3 hours a day because you can get it burned out really quick doing these cold calls. So, if you are doing this local in your office which I know you probably are Larry, I would get somebody that would do it for 2 or 3 hours a day, maybe a couple of people 2 or 3 hours a day depending on how many phone numbers you have.

Larry: They can’t really be on a dialer much longer than that. They can’t handle it.

Joe: Yeah. By the time after that, they’ll get burned out, they’ll get angry and irritated and it just doesn’t work.

Larry: Right.

Joe: So, if we have one VA doing 3 hours a day, we can usually get out of those numbers that she calls 3 to 5 good leads. And the other cool thing Larry, oh my gosh, we are finding right now that we are getting just as many leads from sellers that answer the phone and we talked to them and say “yeah, I’d take an offer. I’d entertain an offer for my house.” We are getting just as many leads from that as people that we leave voicemails on. So in other words, Mojo will pop up you know like, hey, somebody is answering the phone and it stops dialing the other numbers and if it is a voicemail, you click a button and it leaves them a prerecorded voicemail.

Larry: Yeah, you can move on.

Joe: Yeah, so you can move on to the next one. But our pre-recorded voicemails says something like, “Hey, this is Jim, we are investors and we are looking to buy some more homes in the area.” So, it is pre-recorded, so it is not specific to a property.

Larry: Right.

Joe: But it is like, “We are looking to buy some homes in the area, we think that you might own a property there. If you are interested maybe selling your house, please call us back and leave a message or call us back or whatever.” So, they will get that message. We are getting just as many leads now from the voicemails that we are leaving as from the people that we are actually talking to.

Larry: That’s sweet. I love that.

Joe: We are now getting anywhere from 7 to 10 leads a day from a direct mail list of just 2,000 addresses.

Larry: 2,000 that’s it?

Joe: That’s it. But we are targeting high equity absentee owners and really good zip codes. Now, for us a good zip code is where there is a lot of turnkey activity, a lot of investors that are buying houses right now like turnkey rental properties.

Larry: Right, right.

Joe: I’m giving you all my secrets Larry.

Larry: Yeah, I love it. It is great. Hey, I’ve got my own list I got to work first.

Joe: And that’s a very good list. Is it what’s-his-name-give-you-phone-numbers or do you have to get that yourself?

Larry: Well, I got them, I paid for the phone numbers.

Joe: Okay. Is it a good list? I mean like did you get…

Larry: Let me just put it this way. I’m 6 weeks into the list and I probably have 18 or 19 contracts.

Joe: I think that’s worth it. ‘Cause I know you guys will not cheat.

Larry: One guy tried to give me his house. I said, “No, wait a minute. Let me look it up.” I said, “I’ll pay you 10 grand.” We already have it sold for 20. But one of the deals Joe, I’m buying 8 acres for $10,000, 8 acres.

Joe: Just vacant land?

Larry: Just vacant land. 8 acres for 10 grand. I got another 6 acres I’m buying downtown, Hickory, North Carolina, it zoned for 20 units an acre, you can put 120 units on it, I got it for 80 grand. It already has water and sewer.

Joe: Larry, we are also doing some land flips and it is so easy. We are just making blind offers.

Larry: Yeah.

Joe: We are making blind offers…

Larry: Tell us about that. You and I talked about that last time we were together in St. Louis. Tell us about that. If you don’t mind sharing it.

Joe: You know, it is not shiny objects, you know, but I like… here’s a thing, focus will make you rich, right? Shiny objects will make you go blind. But we are in the point Larry where like I got a team and systems in place like, okay, you guys tackle that. Okay, I got this shiny object itch I wanna scratch so I wanna start learning land. So, what I did though as I bought like 3 or 4 different courses on land investing, Jack Bosh is one of our mutual friend. I’ve bought one from him. I found two people that I wanted to partner with and I said, all right, listen, I’ll pay for the marketing and I’ll provide the team, you go through these courses and learn how to do this and we will split the deal. I think we are doing 45 to 55 or 40 to 60 or something like that. He said, “yeah.” So, what we’ve done is we just, we are going out and we are finding vacant land in rural communities like you got to be at least a couple of hours away from any major city.

Larry: Right.

Joe: Because then you can get them super cheap.

Larry: Yeah.

Joe: And all we do is like we are targeting some counties in Colorado right now and Oregon. And I’m talking like in the sticks, not in the mountains but like in the foothills, in the desert.

Larry: In the middle of nowhere.

Joe: In the middle of nowhere and you think why would anybody buy a property here? I don’t do but they do. So, there is a saying in land, there’s a pig for every barn. There’s somebody that is looking for land where they can ride their 4 wheelers, they can build a cabin, they can hide their guns when the government comes, hopefully, a democra… I shouldn’t say this, like…

Larry: It’s okay go ahead.

Joe: When a democrat is in office, you better start investing in guns, in the whole prepper survival list industry because everybody starts freaking out and starts thinking that they got to have, you know, so anyway, when Trump became president, gun sales went down and but when Obama was president, a lot of people out there looking for land to go and get off the grid when Obama came to take all their guns.

Larry: Right.

Joe: They want a place so they could go hide. But there is always a demand for this vacant land because you buy it so cheap. We find out what a typical 2-acre is selling for, vacant lot 2-acres, 2 to 5 acres, we find out what their average active listing price is on sites like Land Watch or Zillow or whatever.

Larry: Right.

Joe: And then we figure, we will make an offer at 15% to 20% of the average list price of those homes and we will just send a pool list of all of the vacant land owners, we will send 500 to 1,000 offers a week to vacant land owners and we will get about one out of every three to four hundred offers will get accepted.

Larry: Right. That’s awesome. And you just do like a one page simple offer and just stick into mail, so out of every three or four hundred, I mean, what if you mail out 10,000?

Joe: It will be too much to handle.

Larry: It will cost you about 3 grand and you are gonna get a ton of deals.

Joe: Yeah, but it will be too much to handle.

Larry: See, that’s my point. That’s awesome.

Joe: You gotta break it up. You know, start up slow but like your goal is to get to like a thousand offers a week and the other cool thing Larry is you can sell these things in owner financing.

Larry: Yeah.

Joe: And because it is vacant land, you don’t have to, there’s not the same laws apply.

Larry: For Dodd-Frank.

Joe: For Dodd-Frank because it is not residence, it is…

Larry: And you don’t have to go out and inspect the property and look at the condition, none of that.

Joe: So, you know, we’ve done about 30 deals of these, 30 of these land deals. I’m not an expert, you know, I have no intention of teaching it or coaching it because there are already guys that have really good stuff on it, but you know, land is great and you can, there’s guys right now like there’s a site you should check it out, I believe.

Larry: Uh-huh.

Joe: It is some guy that buys these little infill lots in small town nowhere and you’ll buy these little lots for couple hundred bucks and you’ll turn around and sell them for a couple of thousand bucks and he’ll sell them on terms. He’ll sell them for 50 to 100 bucks a month.

Larry: Right.

Joe: For financing. He has been doing this since the late 90s. So, I’m sure it is working for him, right?

Larry: Exactly.

Joe: You can see like how on earth is somebody making money selling these little lots in the middle of nowhere, small city for a couple of thousand dollars? Well, he is selling them on terms. He is selling them on owner financing.

Larry: Exactly.

Joe: He does this in multiple markets all around the country, but if you buy it cheap enough, it is like you can’t make a mistake because you are buying it so cheap, worse case you sell it for what you bought it for and you break even. So, you can sell it for cash, you make a quick 5 to 10 grand cash.

Larry: Right.

Joe: If you sell it on terms, you can start making a hundred, hundred and fifty dollars a month cash flow on these notes and it is super easy to start getting all of a sudden couple a week, 5 or 10 a month, and that builds up. You don’t get the tax benefits that you do with owning residential real estate houses.

Larry: The depreciation.

Joe: You don’t get the depreciation. You don’t get the tax right officer and all of that. But there is a lot easier. You don’t have to hire property management, you don’t have to deal with repairs and vacancies and inspections.

Larry: Exactly.

Joe: There’s a lot of advantages to it.

Larry: That is sweet. We have a contract right now to buy a lot for 1500 bucks.

Joe: You know, you can use Options and here’s the other thing, we don’t actually use an Option, we just make sure our contract sometimes has closing dates, 6 months out in the future. It is like there is no competition for these deals. We make our offers contingent on verifying taxes, title and value. And we do our due diligence. During this due diligence, we will make sure that it is a good marketable piece of land. We will start advertising the property. Sometimes we close on it and then sell it. Sometimes we will sell it before we even buy it. There’s some nuisances there but you got to make sure you are doing it the right way.

Larry: Right.

Joe: You can sell these things really, really quickly. And for whatever reason, you realized, you know, what I offered way too much or this property has, there is an environmental waste land there like it is hazardous or whatever, you can back away from it and not buy it.

Larry: That’s cool. That’s cool. Joe, I want to point out one thing you mentioned a minute ago, when you started talking about the shiny object that you wanted to go after was the land, you bought several courses and I think it is really important here, I mean you and I, I mean we teach this stuff, we are coaches, we are mentors, I even have coaching students that have gone to you and vice versa.

Joe: One of them by the way you sent us, we’ve already done a deal with her.

Larry: That’s awesome. That’s sweet.

Joe: What else do you remember?

Larry: That’s sweet.

Joe: Just a month or two, we’ve already done a deal with her.

Larry: That’s great man. That is great. She is doing awesome. I’m really proud of her.

Joe: You know, she is amazing. She is really cool.

Larry: The thing I wanted to point out is even though we know a lot of people and we would have people give us courses or you know just give us links to log in to stuff, it is important that you have skin in the game.

Joe: Oh yeah.

Larry: It is important that you invest your own money because it makes you appreciate it more, right? When somebody gives you something, there is no value there, right? But if you paid your hard earn money for it, you are going to treat it more carefully and actually end up, you know, when you have skin in the game, you gonna end up using it.

Joe: Well, we practice what we preach Larry. I mean, I could have asked these guys for free access to the course and they probably would have given it to me.

Larry: Yeah.

Joe: One of them wouldn’t of. I won’t tell who he is. But like you know I also, I pay a lot of money for coaching and Masterminds and stuff like that. So, I’ve always tell people like if you are looking for a coach or an educator, someone to teach you, make sure that they are number one, they are actively doing deals, right? But they are also like staying up-to-date and current on the current trends and stuff like that.

Larry: Right.

Joe: So, you know, I’m always out there buying books and courses and signing up for new programs because I wanna make sure I’m learning the best cutting edge stuff that I can pass on to my students, right?

Larry: Right.

Joe: That I can start implementing and figure out what works and what does not work and so I only try to recommend stuff that I am actually doing and I feel like that makes me a better coach, it makes me a better educator and again like we talk about before, I learned some of my best stuff from students and so I have a student that tells me like, man, I just saw, have you heard of this course, have you seen this system? And I said, no. So, I’ll go buy it and get into it and start testing it and tweaking it and implementing it and stuff like that. And I won’t steal stuff, you know like, what I’m trying to say is like I won’t take what some else taught and teach it like it was my own.

Larry: Right.

Joe: But I’ll take the stuff then I implement from that and say, hey, listen I learned this really good stuff about land from Jack Bosch and this is what we are doing now and this is what work. You should go check out his course and this is what we are doing.

Larry: Exactly. Or you learn like here’s something I learned from Jack Bosch, I learned this from this guy, I learned this from this guy and I took all these and I came up with my own. I took a little bit here, a little bit here, a little bit here and I tweak it a little bit and created my own system.

Joe: Let me give you a better advice I think even with this. Like you’ve got a lot of courses on your shelf, digitally, that is collecting dust, right? And you are like, man I spent a lot of money in that course, I haven’t implemented it yet. This is what I started doing. I had some virtual assistants and a couple of local assistants at one time and I went through all my courses and I said you know what, what if I gave some of these courses to my assistants and have them started going through it and started implementing it for me. I’ve done that a couple of times. I’ve given us, all right, this is a strategy, I want you to learn it, I want you to start implementing it, we are gonna have a meeting once a week and you are gonna report back to me what you are learning and then we are gonna come up with a score card to track your progress. So, we are gonna start doing these deals. And I’ve done that several times. So, like if I don’t go through something, but I know this course works. I’ve done this in several different industries outside of real estate even Larry. I’ve got an assistant who’s got some time on her hands or I wanna move her into a different direction, I’ll give her one of the courses that I bought and make her go through it or I’ll work with some partners and have them go through that stuff. Does that make sense?

Larry: Absolutely it does. I love it. That’s a great, great idea. I mean you invested the education and then you are leveraging your time by helping somebody else go through it and then you partner with them. That’s one of the cool things I like about what you do is you’ve mentioned several times about I’ve got a partner doing land, I’ve got a partner or somebody helping me down in Alabama or down you know Mississippi and you are leveraging not only your time but you are leveraging other people as well.

Joe: Yeah. I think it is important. You know, look at, what’s his name, the guy Richard Branson, I mean is there anybody that has done it better than he. He has lots of businesses, but he looks for people that are really good at what they do and he hires them, he pays them well and gives them the stuff to go and take it and run. That’s not for everybody.

Larry: Right.

Joe: You know, I mean obviously if somebody is listening to this that are just getting started in the business, pick a strategy and focus on it like a laser beam.

Larry: I agree. I agree.

Joe: Ignore everything else. Just focus on that one strategy and master it. I refer to it as simple system scale. I learned this from Rob Swanson. I think you now Rob.

Larry: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe: And there’s this concept in the Air Force I believe, it is called “high speed, low drag” and that’s where the efficiency is, if you are gonna make a lot of money fast, you gotta think about your drag, and the drag comes in where you have resistance and things that are slowing you down, so how do you remove that resistance? Well, you break everything down into silos and you break it down into a simple component, you build a system around that and only then do you scale it. So, I encouraged folks, you know like if you are looking at doing deals, pick wholesaling or pick lease options or land or whatever, but pick one, focus on it, keep it super simple like don’t worry about doing three different marketing strategy. Just get one.

Larry: Right, right.

Joe: Keep it simple, build a system around that then scale it. And then look at your next marketing campaign. You know, your next different marketing strategy. Keep it simple. Build a system around that and then scale it. Here’s a thing Larry, once you get good and you have this simple system scale in your business, if you do one deal a month, there is no reason why you can’t do eight. If you are doing deals in one city, there’s no reason why you can’t do deals in eight cities.

Larry: Right.

Joe: It is just a duplicatable, repeatable process and you will get there until you start focusing on that one strategy and in that one strategy start breaking down simple components in that strategy and just focus on getting them to 100% before you start going to the next thing, you know.

Larry: Exactly. Man, that is an awesome advice. That’s really good advice. Joe, you have a new book out, don’t you?

Joe: Yes. I don’t have it with me. Oh, I printed a bunch of them.

Larry: They are sold out.

Joe: It has been selling like crazy. It has been blowing me away. I wrote a book on Wholesaling Lease Options. It is on wholesaling lease options.

Larry: Right.

Joe: You know, I talked before I was doing a lot of wholesaling but I started doing lease options because I got tired of throwing leads away that didn’t have any equity.

Larry: Right.

Joe: And when I started doing that, I started making more money flipping lease options part-time than I was in my full-time job.

Larry: Uh-huh.

Joe: Within about 3 months. And so that’s when I quit my job, this is 2009. And I think lease options are becoming more important now than ever Larry because the market is starting to slow down and sellers are having a harder times, the houses are sitting on the market, there’s that book called Who Moved My Cheese.

Larry: Right.

Joe: And it is always important to be a student of the market and when you see the markets are changing directions, you need to be prepared for it and you need to understand creative real estate, owner financing, lease options, subject-to’s because it is gonna become more and more important as market conditions soften and they are, to be able to have something that can help sellers that don’t have enough equity. See, if you look at all of the motivated sellers in the world, in the United States, there is a lot more motivated sellers with a little equity than there are motivated sellers with a lot of equity. Does that make sense?

Larry: Right.

Joe: And all the investors are out there targeting the motivated sellers with a lot of equity, but there is very few of them and there is tons of investors targeting them. What about the sellers that are motivated, job loss, job transfer, divorce, they have two mortgage payments, they are tired of dealing being a landlord, but they don’t have much equity, but they are just as motivated, right? So if all you knew was how to just make a cash offer, it is not gonna work for those guys.

Larry: Right.

Joe: So, I started doing lease options and you know, Rockefeller said that “The secret to wealth is to own nothing and control everything.”

Larry: Right.

Joe: And so there is no better strategy in my opinion than lease options to control really viable pieces of real estate without using your own money to buy it, without getting a bank loan, without taking over a loan, just by using a simple lease with an option to buy it in the future. It is really simple strategy. It is a way that you can start flipping deals that don’t have any equity in instead of throwing it away into the wood pile, make a lease option offer. So, that’s what I did. I wrote a book, it is super simple, it is called “Wholesaling Lease Options” and if anybody wants it, you can go to I printed a bunch of them and I’m giving them away for free but you just have to pay shipping and handling and get it send to you. And my guarantee is pretty crazy, super simple. If you don’t like the book, I’ll refund you, the shipping and handling and you can keep it. At and I’m getting actually really good feedback. I was really nervous. I haven’t put it on Amazon yet because I’m like, what if people don’t like it. I’m gonna get a bunch of bad reviews. But the feedback I’ve been getting has been really, really good. It is a simple book, you can read it in a couple of three hours and, you should go get it.

Larry: That’s awesome man. That is really, really good. You know, knowing you, I know it is gotta be a great book.

Joe: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Larry: That’s really good. That’s really good. So, Joe, man this has just been a wealth of information. We’ve been on here almost an hour now. One of the longest ones I’ve done in a long time. We probably should have broken it up into a couple.

Joe: That’s all right.

Larry: It’s all good. So, what do you need? People out there watching right now, what do you need, what would you like to encourage them to do, you know, how could they network with you if they wanted to reach out to you, what would they do?

Joe: A lot of ways people can reach out to me, I have a podcast, Real Estate Investing Mastery podcast, I do 2 or 3 episodes a week, give away ton of valuable free information there and give a lot of stuff. I have been doing this since 2011, but if people are interested in my podcast, go to I’m starting to do more YouTube videos. I’m gonna be starting to do more educational content videos but specifically for YouTube instead of just the podcast. I’d be still adding them into the podcast but people can go checkup, just Google me, Joe McCall in YouTube and you’ll find me there.

Larry: Right.

Joe: And Facebook, you can just check out Joe McCall on Facebook, you can find me there.

Larry: Awesome. Awesome. That sounds good. Joe, man, I really, really appreciate you being on today. This has just been some awesome info.

Joe: Thank you Larry. I appreciate it. And it is an honor to be on your show again man. I remember those early days watching your webinars. I remember very vividly where I was listening you and watching you and being blown away as you walk through like the 20 different tabs you had opened, remember in Firefox.

Larry: I do. I do.

Joe: You had all those different tabs and you are showing us how to evaluate deals and find deals and it was… I mean remember… yeah I don’t know if you still use it Larry you talk about like, if you were I believe in this strategy so much, if you are to drop me off in a deserted island or take everything away from me, this is the exact strategy I would use, remember?

Larry: Right, right, right.

Joe: I love that because you are somebody that really does believe what you teach and you actually practice it which is an honor. It is rare in this industry.

Larry: Well you know it is funny you said that because just like you, we made a commitment a long time ago, we are not gonna teach anything we don’t do. If we don’t do it, we don’t teach it, right?

Joe: Yeah.

Larry: So we teach what we do, just real world, on the street, stuff that we do every day, right?

Joe: That’s important. It’s really important.

Larry: It absolutely is. Well, man, I really appreciate you being on here. This has been awesome. Thank you so much.

Joe: Thank you Larry. I appreciate it.

Larry: All right, thanks a lot. Talk to you soon.

Joe: Please say, hi to Kandas for me.

Larry: Oh, I sure will. Thanks.

Joe: All right, see you.